Hash Church Season 12 Episode 21

This week on Hash Church, we dive into the art of the perfect pre-roll.
The conversation explores what actually makes a pre-roll smoke properly from start to finish, including solventless infusion and hash holes, airflow, draw resistance, combustion, filtration, resin preservation, burn consistency, storage, and flavour expression.
We get into:
• Solventless infused pre-rolls
• Kief coating, hash holes, hash crumbles, and rosin snakes
• Tips for infused pre-roll manufacturing
• Storage and moisture control
• Airflow and draw resistance
• Combustion and smoke quality
• Flavour preservation and terpene expression
• Common mistakes in pre-roll production
• The future of premium smoking experiences
 
This episode is sponsored by PureFlowe™, a patented hollow vortex filtration system designed specifically for cannabis pre-rolls.
 
PureFlowe™ was developed to rethink the traditional filter by improving airflow, supporting a smoother draw, and helping preserve the flavour and character of the flower or infusion.
 
As the pre-roll category continues to grow into one of the biggest segments in cannabis, we look at how better design, better materials, and better smoking mechanics can help brands create a more premium consumer experience.
Filtration, combustion science, and pre-roll engineering are becoming a bigger part of the conversation, and this episode goes right into the centre of it.
If you’re into hash, solventless, rosin, infused joints, pre-roll manufacturing, or the craft of the smoking experience, this is a fun one!
 
Learn more about PureFlowe™:
www.stellarjs.com
Instagram:
@stellarjsco

At Hash Church, we talk a lot about ritual, respect for the plant, and elevating the experience. That’s exactly why we’re proud to be supported by Puffco.
Puffco continues to set the standard for modern consumption with tools built for people who truly care about flavor, temperature, and intentional use.
From the Puffco Peak Pro with the 3D XL Bowl — delivering consistent heat, bigger hits, and unmatched terp expression —to the Proxy, redefining modular, ritual-based consumption,and the Pivot, bringing true Puffco performance into a compact, everyday format…
These aren’t gadgets.They’re purpose-built tools for hash and solventless.
We’re genuinely grateful for Puffco’s continued support of Hash Church, our guests, and our community. Their belief in education, culture, and quality helps us keep these conversations alive.
👉 Support the brands that support the culture.Visit puffco.com, explore their lineup, and experience what intentional design really feels like.
Puffco — Elevate the Ritual.


We believe that how you make hash matters just as much as what you make. Craft, consistency, and respect for the process are everything — and that’s why we’re proud to be supported by Press Club.
Press Club has become a trusted name in solventless production, creating well-engineered rosin presses, accessories, and tools designed for people who take this work seriously — whether you’re pressing at home or dialing in a professional workflow.
From their precision-built pressesto their thoughtful accessories and hardwarePress Club helps makers focus on what matters most: quality in, quality out.
We’re genuinely grateful for Press Club’s support of Hash Church, our guests, and the wider solventless community. Their commitment to education, craftsmanship, and accessibility helps push the culture forward.
👉 Support the companies that support the craft.Visit pressclub.co, check out their presses and tools, and take your solventless game to the next level. Use code : hashchurch10 for a discount
Press Club — Built for the Press.

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These aren’t just lights — they’re precision tools designed for those who care about terpene expression, resin production, structure, yield, and consistency. Every fixture is built with focus, purpose, and a relentless dedication to helping growers unlock the full potential of their genetics.
If your goal is to grow louder flowers, frostier resin, and premium-grade harvests, Grand Master LEDs is built for the mission. On Hash Church, we salute companies pushing the craft forward — and Grand Master LEDs is doing exactly that.
You can use Hashchurch10 as a code to get a discount of 10%



Join this channel to get access to perks:
   / @bcbubbleman  

Transcript

unknown 0:00

Alright.

SPEAKER_11 0:01

Everybody, welcome. Welcome everybody to Hash Church season 12, episode 21, Sunday morning at 9 a.m. Pacific Standard Time. I hope you're all doing well. I do hope you're all doing well. I am going to quickly delete my voice because it's super annoying to hear in my headphones. Um got a nice show organized for you today. A new company that we're going to be uh promoting and supporting and talking about. But uh first and foremost, let me get that out of the way. Let me get this into the way. And let me begin by shouting out our sponsors. So, new sponsor today, Hashes, uh today's episode of Hash Church is sponsored by Pure Flow. So, this is an advanced hollow vortex filter technology designed specifically for cannabis pre-rolls. So, pre uh Pure Flow rethinks the traditional paper crutch by improving airflow, uh supporting a smooth draw and helping preserve the flavor and character of the flower or infusion. Sort of built for you know top quality pre-u-rolls, infused joints and connoisseur level smoking experience. Pureflow, it's helping push the category forward with better design, better function, and a cleaner session from start to finish. So we want to thank Pure Flow team for supporting Hash Church and the culture. Uh, we got a whole conversation that we're going to be talking about it today. And because I just started smoking joints again in the last five to six months, I kind of came across this, thought it was pretty cool, and thought, you know, this might be a good uh a good idea for us to uh promote. Uh the press club. What can be said about the press club? These guys have been supporting us. We're on year two now. If you want to elevate your solvent list game at Hash Church with the press club's top-tier lineup of rosin extraction essentials, proudly supporting the community through top-tier tools that make clean, potent concentrates a breeze from our their legendary rosin bags with uh this the pink stitch, the proprietary pink stitch, uh, unbeatable durability, zero blowout guarantees, uh, you know, high quality yields, uh, and really two award-winning wash bags, premium parchment, paper pre-pressed molds, and innovative press club rosin press uh for precision heat, precise heat and pressure control. You know, whether you're crafting at home or scaling up, they're isoswab stations, collection plates, uh, and collection plates, keep your setup spotless and efficient, all crafted with 100% food grade dye-free nylon for contaminant-free results that preserve those precious, volatile organic compounds. You can join the press club in championing hash church by uh heading over to the pressclub.co today uh and gear up uh for your next uh epic press. Of course, we would be remiss to not uh mention our good friends over at Puffco. And if you want to elevate your sessions at Hash Church with Puffco's cutting edge lineup, you can check it out by starting with the innovative pivot, a pocket-sized dab pen that delivers full-size rig experience on the go, featuring a quick release 3D chamber for premium flavor and real-time temperature control, with four heat presets and haptic feedback. For epic group rips, you can dive into the Puffco Peak Pro, powered by Revolutionary 3D XL Bull Technology with uh a 78% larger chamber, even joystick for the sides to pr uh to preserve terpenes and an XL joystick for fuller loads with less reclaim. And don't miss the new proxy, the modular portable powerhouse with four precision heat settings, fast 90-minute charging, boost mode for intense hits, and easy disassembly for seamless cleaning, or you can turn it into the core by adding the top and the bottom from the from the Puffco lineup for the core. It's perfect for any adventures. You can support Puffco's game-changing innovations by heading over to www.puffco.com or following Puffco on Instagram. So yeah, there's those guys. Um awesome. I'm gonna let the crew in here. We've got eight people, if you can imagine, waiting to get in. This is pretty hardcore. Oh, Kyle's got his note keeper and his AI and his this and his that. All right, Kyle, look at you go with your AI notes and etc. Awesome. What's going on, Adam?

SPEAKER_07 4:11

What's going on, man?

SPEAKER_11 4:13

How's it going? Reed's been in the house for 15 minutes. I just wasn't able to let him in. Sorry about that, buddy. I feel that uh sometimes when I let people in before I get the sponsorship shout outs and all of that sort of thing going, uh, I fuck up. So I don't let people in before it's nine in the morning on a Sunday, goddammit. Uh microphone. Oh, there we go. Yes, that's probably what's doing it. Uh can you guys just speak?

SPEAKER_04 4:49

Mic check one too. Mic check one too.

SPEAKER_11 4:51

Oh, I can hear you through my speaker now. Hey, hey. Hey, can you hear me? You're on my headphones. I can hear all of you. You got me here too. Yeah, dude. I can hear each and every one of you. Apologies. Uh see? I fuck up. It happens. Anyway, welcome. This is uh this is a whole crew, man. Welcome, Kyle and Creed and Robbie and Kyle's Fathom Notaker. Welcome to Kyle's Fathom Note Taker, which will be in the box all day because Kyle decided to open a note taker on my uh that's awesome. We'll we'll we'll deal with it. Um, yeah, so uh today we're in here. We're gonna be, I'm actually gonna roll a joint for the first time ever on Hash Church. And I think I'm gonna smoke a joint in my office for the first time since I've owned this house. I have not smoked a joint in my office. My wife was like, You're gonna you're not gonna smoke a joint in the house, are you? I was like, Oh, uh no, I don't think I'm going to. So gonna sleep in the dog house tonight. That's fine. It's all good.

SPEAKER_07 5:49

It's okay. You can smoke there too.

SPEAKER_11 5:53

Dude, that's very that's a very good point, Adam. You can smoke in the in the doghouse. So I think um, I mean, Creed's already way ahead of us. I got some of these pure flows right here. I do want to ask some advice, uh, maybe from you, Creed, because you seem to be like really focused on this. Sure. I love these, I quite love them. The part I'm fucking up on is at the end. I'm I think I'm stuffing. I've tried stuffing it lighter here, but what's happening as I get to the end, it's sucking the paper in. Like you can see the ripples on the paper. Each time I take a hit, it's yeah, it's pulling it in. Is there a way for me to maybe pack a little looser? What's your what's your for sure?

SPEAKER_04 6:31

This is um a bit of an interesting anomaly uh when it comes to pre-rolls, especially modern pre-rolls that are just increasing in potency, getting more and more uh potent. I mean, nowadays we're seeing things on the market that are upwards of 40%. Um, and it's like I I'm assuming that like once the joint is lit and the heat, the immense heat from the combustion is flowing through the joint, it's vaporizing a lot of this THC, you know, pre uh pre-cherry. Uh so you know, if you have a 40% THC joint, or even if you're smoking a high potency flower, you know, in the high 20s or, you know, some mythical 30% plus flowers, um, I'm seeing a lot of shrinkage, a lot of mass reduction. Um, you know, your water vapor, your THC, it's all um, you know, vanishing from the flower. It collapses in, it creates these little channels and uh blocks the airflow. Um, I I think a lot of the mitigation to these problems is um uh the particle size. You know, when you're grinding your flower, um if everything is a uniform particle size, it tends to interlock with each other and block the airflow. Um, if you have chaotic particle size or a very coarse mill, I don't see those implosions and those wrinkles and the blockage happening as much.

SPEAKER_07 7:52

That's super interesting. Go ahead, Adam. If I was gonna say, if I if I could add to that, um you know, uh I think more than uh consistency of particle size, and and you hit the uh nail on the head there, uh the coarser the the grind, generally the better the airflow, right? You can you can pack better um with with still allowing for um uh again better airflow. And what we found, especially with commercial manufacturing, we see this with with many of our customers, many of our competitors, is um you grind to the uh requirement of the automation or the way that you're filling your joint. Uh whereas whereas what you really want to do is you want to sort of replicate what it would be if you had your your standard hand buster, right? And your your hand buster is not is not grinding up these like tiny particulate, you're not grinding up dust, you're not rolling with dust, right? Like you want to maximize the grind size. So something that we've uh that we've done is is we've dialed our entire manufacturing line around maximizing uh the grind size so that it improves airflow all the way through. And you know, Marcus, to your to to your to speak to your question, like that that bottom sort of third of the joint, a lot of automations and a lot of a lot of uh like even the knockbox and and that kind of stuff, the different ways that they make joints, um, don't really pack that bottom third of the joint well enough. And that's what creates that wrinkled effect. And uh so I would actually tell you to go the other direction and and don't pack it loose at the bottom. I would say pack it really properly at the bottom so and and make sure that you've got a consistent pack all the way through. You're gonna, you're gonna at that you say the tighter the pack, the better it burns. And also you you're gonna see the ember or or sorry, the the the uh ash burn brighter because and burn whiter because um it it it it just allows for for proper airflow and compaction.

SPEAKER_11 10:01

So well, I love that we got right into this conversation. I will say I packed mine very tight the first time. I it was in my nature to think, well, I'll just pack this tight. And I I also have to acknowledge that I haven't been smoking joints in a very long time. So, for example, I'm actually this is awesome. I'm a newbie, I'm a total newbie in this conversation, which is fucking mental when you really think about it. And I swear, when I when I did smoke joints back 30 years ago, I have still probably smoked more joints than many of the people that I know who have been smoking joints for 30 years, and I haven't been smoking. That's just how many joints I smoked back in the day, you know, like 40, 50, 60 grams on a good day. Right. Yeah, I was flipping pounds, man. I had free weed. It makes it easy peasy. Three line of Judah, big, fatty, thick Jamaican papers, four gram joints, complete insanity. I have never smoked a pre-roll. How about that? I have never smoked a pre-roll. Now, my joints that I'm rolling are not um infused. I am using some very nice flour. I have a feeling when Creed said what he said, this crush grinder, it dusts cannabis. It's just like shoot, shoo, which I thought I loved, but now maybe I'll try a different grinder and see if I can't get a little bit of a thicker uh paper. But anyway, I'm going to smoke this joint while we were on this conversation. And instead of just, you know, going deep into this right away, I think it would be cool to introduce the team because uh we really haven't sort of met everyone. We got a ton of people on here that uh we haven't seen. Let me see if I can uh I'd love to get rid of that Kyle's Fathom note taker because it every time I put it on the main screen, it shows up as a box. I can give you all the notes if you want to shut that down, Kyle. And then that way we just got each other and we can go. Um I think there's also gonna be a recording of this afternoon. It's all recorded, it's transcribed. You'll be able to search it 100%. I don't know if you guys saw my good buddies Bike and and and James took all of the 12 years of Hashchurch and they transcribed the entire thing. And now if you go to hash bible.org, you can literally be like, Hey, where did Skunkman Sam? When did Skunkman Sam mention uh how to how to force flowering on greenhouse plants? You'll get links from HashTurch of every single time we spoke about that in the voice of the person who you're basically asking the question to in the first place. So this is a massive, and this will be this episode as well. So if we can put on some great information, uh this will be a searchable database uh for PureFlow um in the future. So yes, absolutely everything is beyond um is beyond recorded. So what I'm thinking is as I like this joint, uh God, I feel like I should send my wife a little message and just be like, hey, is it okay if I uh it's good to respect your partner. And I have like the greatest partner on earth, so it would make no sense for me not to do that. So I'm gonna send my wife a little text, make sure it's okay for me to smoke this joint. And in the meantime, why don't you start, Kyle, uh, with a little introduction, and then you can kind of lead it down the line to whoever uh you want to pass it on to, and then the next person can choose who they. I just want to hear from every single person on the uh on the panel.

SPEAKER_05 13:22

Appreciate that, Marcus, and thanks for joining this fellowship, everybody here today. So it's been uh a long time coming for us to get this product into the market, and I'm really happy to have this forum to discuss it, talk about it, pick it apart, smoke it, enjoy it. But for an intro, my name's Kyle. I'm from Victoria, BC, which is on Vancouver Island, which uh many Canadians know as the uh cultural center of cannabis in Canada, I like to say. Um many of the arguments and uh legislative battles that created legal cannabis started in Victoria, uh namely with uh Ted Smith and Owen Smith at the Victoria Cannabis Buyers Club. And yeah, I started my journey in cannabis about uh 33 years ago and been enjoying it ever since. So started out as an activist and used to go to the rallies at Beacon Hill Park in Victoria with the likes of Ian Hunter and Ted Smith, where we would actually have a Sunday session of smoke in at the park um every Sunday. And lo and behold, one Sunday, uh one fateful afternoon, my best friend got arrested, and it was a big deal, and that's a whole nother story, but it kind of drove me underground. I stopped being an activist, um, I started growing marijuana and distributing marijuana and um took it to got into the business side of weed to feel safe. Been enjoying it my whole life. Um, around the time that the price of weed started to collapse, I had uh a few different people in the same week tell me I should get into shatter, and so there I was going from woodshed to garage to basement to out in people's backyards blasting shatter and making shatter. And from from working with shatter, I got into oil and became a bit of an oil fanatic for the past decade or so. Um, consider myself pretty versed with oil and its various forms. Then I got into oil packaging, and from oil packaging, I decided to hyper focus on vape. And so been doing vape full-time for the past six or seven years. We do have another brand in the market for vape, it's called Acera. So Acera is designed to my my goal with Acera was to make a vape that tasted as good as a joint, um, because I've been a joint smoker my whole life. Acera is now very entrenched in the Canadian marketplace. We've got some uh big brands doing a lot of success with Acra. And it was finally time for us to lend attention to our other house brand, Stellar J's. And Stellar J's is for pre-rolls. Yet I didn't want to just do every regular pre-roll like every other pre-roll in the market, so I've been searching for a way to make pre-rolls unique or make them different or better, or you know, advanced the the pre-roll category somehow. And lo and behold, about nine months ago, um, PureFlow came across my desk, and I immediately saw that this was something different. It was it was, in my opinion, an advancement of the pre-roll category, and very happy to be launching the the Pure Flow story here with you today, Marcus. And next week we're gonna be out in Toronto at the Grow Up Conference. We're doing a big booth out there, and that's gonna be the official launch of Pure Flow in Canada. We do have a couple dozen samples out across the country right now, and some of the initial feedback from uh various LPs has been quite astounding, which is uh really nice because yeah, I went pretty hard into this peer flow avenue. And um, like you, Marcus, I'm in my home office and I'm gonna be rolling up a peer flow on my little Wu Tang tray here pretty quick.

SPEAKER_10 17:49

Oh, Wu Tang is for the children. It's for the children, my friend.

SPEAKER_05 17:54

I'm just coming off uh a two-week abstination. I've been sick, so I've had a two-week tolerance break. So I'm planning to get uh get some good feelings on my first peer flow here this morning. So on that note, thank you for listening to my intro and thanks again for hosting us, Marcus.

SPEAKER_10 18:13

Yeah, dude, thanks, Kyle.

SPEAKER_11 18:15

Always uh always a pleasure. I've known Kyle for quite a while. We've uh we both have wives named Charlene. For any of you that want an Easter egg of the Kyle and Mark relationship, there's not a lot of Charlenes out there in the world, so the fact that we both found one is pretty cool. I've been with mine for 37 years. I'm pretty sure you've been with yours for a while, too.

SPEAKER_05 18:33

It's true, it's true, and that was uh one of the things that I think brought us closer together, Mark, is I remember we did that double date last year in Vancouver. Yeah, and or was that the year before? Time goes by quick, but we we met at a local restaurant, had a double date with our Charlenes, and we both had nearly front row tickets to see the Marley brothers at the Queen E, Damien and Stephen Marley, and what a show that was. That was awesome. What a great night. Incredible for sure. And sorry about leaving that high tea in your truck.

SPEAKER_11 19:04

Oh, don't worry about that. That's uh that was uh well enjoyed. That was well enjoyed. Why don't we hear from Adam now?

SPEAKER_07 19:15

Sure. Well, first of all, uh Marcus, thank you for uh having me here. It means a lot to uh be on your your show. You know, I've been uh in in my family, we we uh my family has been growing, uh cultivating, selling weed for a very long time. Um hash has been a big part of our day. You know, I've got a saying, you can't smoke hash all day if you don't start in the morning. Um, but uh what's what's cool is you know I've got some of the original uh bubble bags. Um Marcus, you didn't hear I I I still have some of your original bubble bags that uh you know really again got me, my family into sort of washing hash, which is really at this point um more fun than anything. Uh and I don't really like trimming, I love growing weed, don't really like trimming weed. So it all ends up in the wash. But uh but just a little bit about me. So um I uh I have been an advocate for the space for a very long time, probably since 2014. Um I um actually wrote a I wrote a thesis in university before uh cannabis was legalized uh for the criminal uh the pardon me, the sociological impacts of the criminalization of cannabis in Canada. So um very well versed on the history, um have always understood that uh the the legalization was a necessity and and and it was an inevitability more than anything. So I I I've I've been an advocate. I was a volunteer uh in school with the CSSDP, which was the Canadian Students for Sensible Drug Policy, uh volunteered with Leaf TO in Toronto as POT started to become legal, uh as well as Woman Grow, worked at a dispensary in 2015 before the big um influx of dispensaries. So back say before people were taking advantage and it was really just a medical space. Um and and and then you know, worked in media. Um used to work for a company called Civilized, which you may have heard of. It's uh an older brand. Um really it all kind of amalgamated to the beginning of our company, uh, which started in 2021 called Pinners. And Pinners was uh a really early stage brand. This was a product that was really born out of COVID um when we identified that um Individual use size and not sharing joints there there was going to be a real market for. And the only thing that was really there were these real these short stubby joints, which burned really hot, or these ready-can ready's which, you know, uh dominated the market because convenience was was really what they were selling. It wasn't necessarily uh, you know, the quality of the flour or the quality of the manufacturing or anything like that, because they were using cigarette paper and and and it created this this flavor, uh flavorless uh experience, because as I'm sure everybody on here knows that you know the terpenes and the cannabinoids are really what drives that experience, whether it's in one direction or the other. Um, so we identified that uh, you know, there was an opportunity in the market. And the other piece was that you know, pre-rolls were an afterthought. Uh, and this has been the case since before legalization. Pre-rolls are really a function, uh, a product of recreational legalization. Before they were they were giveaways, right? You you were giving you were you were giving away a joint with every ounce you sold, or you gave someone a sample so they would come back and buy, you know, a quarter an ounce or whatever it was. And typically it was your trim, it was your bottom of the bag, whatever, whatever it was. So um for for pinners, uh, because we're not a cultivator and all we did was manufacture joints, it wasn't an afterthought, it was our only thought. Um, and and we really just kept doubling down on uh manufacturing. And interesting that we had talked it creed, you'd mentioned before about the grind size. Pinners uh was a custom design cone with the smallest opening diameter that there is uh for a pre-roll cone. And the reason that we couldn't work with a co-manufacturer who had all these automation or knockbox or whatever is because our goal was to maximize the grind size, which could go into this tiny little cone. And we didn't find any uh external partner to be able to help us manufacture. So the only option was to sort of get into the game and start to do it ourselves. And for the last five years, we've been refining our craft, we've become sort of experts in our own space. And uh Pinners now is uh we could we've put a pin in pinners because uh we we've delisted all of our brands uh as we moved in and became our own licensed producer. Um and and now what we do is we've doubled down on our manufacturing to really bring our expertise to our customers and bring it to the market in a way that uh is meaningful for them. And really uh it's pretty incredible. The the uh the feedback that we've gotten is tremendous. The so now we've got a our company is called Jointcraft. We're located in uh Vaughn, Ontario. Um, when we moved in, we took over the former Cantrust facility, which is a cool bit of history. So and all of our walls are real. We don't have we don't have any of that.

SPEAKER_11 25:11

You're not rocking any unlicensed rooms. I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_07 25:14

No, that was the that was the other facility. We got the real one.

SPEAKER_11 25:18

You know what's neat about that facility is that that was the realization that when you get in trouble in legal cannabis, it ain't the same as getting in trouble in illegal cannabis.

SPEAKER_07 25:27

You're you've got that right. You've got that right. But what but the what it did do is that I believe that that that can trust experience that that moment was what that was the catalyst for what burst the bubble in cannabis, because what it did do is it sent a message to the in the shareholders and the investors of the industry that maybe not everybody's as trustworthy as you know as we once thought. So um it's it's an interesting bit of history, and and you know, I would welcome all of you guys to come uh for a tour, come for a visit, because there are little tidbits around the building that we will never do away with that are you know reminders of reminders of our history and and and keep us grounded in in sort of reality. Um but Jointcraft has done incredible things. Uh, we've got an incredible team, we've got a proprietary uh manufacturing solution, which allows us once again to maximize the grind size, ensure that we have a consistent pack and a proper dense pack all the way through uh the joint and lends itself well to infused pre-rolls, uninfused pre-rolls, whatever it is, you know, uh we do it. And we've grown our business now to the point where we're doing about four to five million pre-rolls every month. Uh and uh we're we're growing quickly, uh, which is very exciting. So, hey, you know, and and the last thing that I'll say um is as you said, it's always good to be respectful to your partner. Um, so I'm not gonna smoke a joint in my condo, but um uh I did mention this to Kyle. I I will have to peel off for like an hour or so uh because I am getting married and uh it's my fiance's um engage uh bridal party today, and I need to go, thank you so much, and I need to go crash the party with some flowers that are not infused.

SPEAKER_10 27:25

And for a second I thought you were hardcore. I was like, listen, I'm getting married, I gotta split for an hour, I'll be back after I get married, and we'll we'll continue the show. I was like, damn, this is gonna be a good idea.

SPEAKER_07 27:35

Well, you know, I if if you've got uh, you know, I'll I'll let you know when my wedding is and if you got a uh a podcast on that date, maybe I'll pop in for a little bit. That's amazing, dude. But uh really guys, I I'm super excited to be here. I'm super excited to talk pre-rolls. It's a really excellent panel. It's a privilege to uh once again uh be on on your on your show here, and uh, you know, uh again uh you'll you'll see me peel off uh probably shortly for about an hour or so, but I will be back and um really thank you for your time and and look forward to getting into it.

SPEAKER_05 28:12

Thank you, Adam. And feel free to smoke another Pureflow before you get back.

SPEAKER_07 28:16

I will, and uh you they are you know what they're very interesting, and I I I just texted you this, but I was expecting more Scooby snacks than I got. Because it's hollow? What pardon me?

SPEAKER_05 28:31

Because it's hollow.

SPEAKER_07 28:33

Well, because when you look at the when you look at the bottom hole, the but can you see this the bottom diameter? It looks quite large, but if you if you look in yep, oh, there yeah, uh, it's it's very different. So the the I don't know if it's uh a taper or uh or not, but um it is it is an inverse cone in the cone, so the hole facing the biomass is much smaller, but you were expecting things to fall through. Well, I just when when I initially looked at it, I said, well, this is you know, how does this solve that problem? And that inverse taper um is is is key, and especially with like quality weed, and you we talked about this for for what PureFlow is trying to do is trying to appeal to sort of the premium uh area of the marketplace. And um when you're talking about putting premium flour that has the right sort of sort of moisture content, you're looking at like north of 12%. Um, this is not going to turn into dust and it's gonna lend itself very well to a cone like this. So um, you know, kudos to you and and and for the team at FTL and and at Pierflow for bringing this to the market because I think that in you know everybody's looking for what I'm sure we'll talk about the charcoal filter or the this filter or the that filter. And I think that um this really brings an interesting product to the to the conversation.

SPEAKER_11 29:58

Dude, you know a Chad came up with the charcoal filter. He's like, why don't we use this charcoal filter? All it's doing is robbing all the flavors, all the volatile organic compounds will get stuck in here. They'll be able to breathe in a smooth, tasteless smoke. Right?

SPEAKER_07 30:13

Uh it's the same guy, I don't know, same guys who are asking for uh weed that doesn't smell. Of course, you know, it's like, bro, I got bad news for you.

SPEAKER_11 30:22

It's like, do you have booze that doesn't they're the same guys that want cannabis to be stable? That's why they're against the flavors, that's why they're against the volatile organic compounds. You guys call them terps. I would convince you to call them volatile organic compounds because terpenes are the larger percentage, but it doesn't mean you're not smelling thiols and thiolates and aldehydes and esters and all these other things that are present in there. So um, robbing really to me, it's all about preserving those things. It's all about uh even in the dab culture, you know, why do we dab off of quartz instead of titanium? Well, because titanium tends to uh destroy the flavor profile more than it preserves it. And and quartz, of course, is on the other side of that, where it it it the way it retains and releases heat is going to decide how well it destroys or preserves the volatile organic compounds in in dab culture.

SPEAKER_04 31:18

I think I can speak to this a little bit. Um, sorry, if I may. Um, I think what I do understand about you know the um the corporate Chads that are trying to uh create these filters um, you know, that rob the volatile compounds from the cannabis. I think their ideology is that they're trying to create a replicatable experience, something that is always the same across every aspect of it. And that's what it that is a detriment to like their uh product design method, you know. Uh they're trying to create a regulated experience, a homogenized experience across every single, you know, joint or cigarette that you pull out of the pack.

SPEAKER_06 31:57

So um I I just want to add in real quick. Sorry, uh I don't try to say anything. I'm just saying that you know, if you think about from the Chad's perspective, that's exactly what they want. That's exactly what they want. They want to bring this into a very tight little bubble that they can keep it in. And if you know cannabis as well as I do, there is so many different flavor profiles, so many different things to to and avenues to go down that if you do try to keep it in that uh if you don't keep it in that plate flavor profile, you'll never be able to take control. And that's what the Chads want. That's exactly the let's graph uh uh cannabis will never die, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_07 32:37

It will never die, and it's it's because as much as as much as the guys who believe listen, guys, cannabis is a commodity, and it is, it a hundred percent is, but the reality is the guys who think that they're gonna follow the typical CPG model, those are the guys who don't they don't get it. They they don't understand the plant, they don't understand the product, and they're trying to they're trying to to to make to your point, make something fit into a box that just won't fit. Yep. The ignorance of that.

SPEAKER_05 33:12

So let's keep going with with the intros. Aaron, really appreciate you jumping on with us. I actually called Aaron like I think 48 hours ago. Um, after you told me you didn't have a second guest for us, Adam. I I went through my Rolodex in my brain and I came up with, hey, I should call Aaron. He's a cool guy from America. And um most of us are Canadian on this panel today, Aaron. But maybe you could give us a little bit of your background and and touch the points.

SPEAKER_06 33:42

Yeah, absolutely. Um boy, it's it's it's it's a lot. I'm gonna try and condense it for you guys. Um, so I started in cannabis. Uh I mean I was growing plants when I was 16, but um, but I really started heavily in cannabis probably around 2006 to uh 2006, maybe 2007, uh in California. Uh that's where like the uh it was kind of the medical Wild West back then. Uh to put it very loosely, I was the guy that uh if you had a garage, I had some lights we should do something together, you know? I was that guy. Um and at that time it was like I said, the wild west. I mean, I was taking I was taking duffel bags full of of cannabis into a medical uh uh dispensary and coming out with cash. It was the greatest time of my young life. Um but uh from there I actually used the money and I uh I used a decent amount of that money to put myself uh through different various schools, engineering schools, and uh I moved on to uh pharmaceutical manufacturing uh and the equipment in there, and I was designing uh clean rooms and manufacturing rooms for uh for it's pharmaceutical, but it was nutritional supplements. Nutritional supplements were really big at that time. I mean they still are, but they're under a slightly different uh mandate than pharmaceutical. And I was using all those loopholes the same way loopholes are in cannabis, you know. Um when the pandemic hit, I uh there was a lot of uh slowdown on manufacturing, and I moved into the uh cannabis area, the same type of uh uh knowledge I had through already growing and go and going through uh every different type of cannabis uh uh product and then and then doing uh pharmaceutical manufacturing really kind of married together in the pandemic era. And I came back out and I kind of started focusing on this and I ended up getting hooked up with two different companies. Um one company that was making pre-rolls, they were doing the tarantula style. Do you guys are you guys familiar with that?

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Tarantula style.

SPEAKER_06 36:08

So that maybe it is a California term, um, but essentially what it is is this the infused pre-roll where it's painted on the outside with distillate and rolled in Keefe. Uh I originally uh they were called tarantulas, uh a lot of people in California uh just adopted that term. Um I recently heard people in New Jersey uh uh uh uh using that same term for them, but people call them jeeters, people call them everything because of where they first seen them. But yes, uh that's what I got hooked up with there. We were using a knockbox, and uh we didn't like where it was going with that. Uh it we ended up trying to look at the next machinery that was available, and it was this, you know, $100,000, $200,000 huge machines. And I had just gotten I just moved away from these big giant equipment. Uh uh and I looked at it and I go, why is anyone spending that much money when you're making a pre-roll? You know? So uh we developed in-house machines for ourselves. That's how uh my current company, Hummingbird, was born. Um in the early days of that, I uh to keep that afloat uh with a few other people, I ended up working for a co-manufacturer uh out of Berkeley, California. And uh I developed a lot of SOPs on infusion and how to infuse pre-rolls, um internally infused, uh homogenized and and smokable, uh high high percentages. Uh I developed a lot of IP for them. And then uh as the hummingbird, that's the current company I uh uh I I have that is uh making a pre-roll machine started to take off. I ended up doubling back and moving into them, and now here I am their main engineer and uh salesperson. So I've done everything with pre-rolls, I've done everything with cannabis, and uh yeah, it's it's fun to be on a panel with you guys uh having so much knowledge in one place.

SPEAKER_05 38:11

Awesome, man. I really look forward to diving into this conversation of infusion and SOPs and all the different ways. Absolutely. Yeah, we certainly got some time today. So uh what's the tagline for Hummingbird, Aaron? Is it spin it to win it?

SPEAKER_06 38:27

Or uh so the uh honestly, um the the tagline for us is ask us about the perfect pre-roll. Because honestly, uh you know, packing a pre-roll is different than rolling, and you guys all know that. You know, there's a different art form to do it.

SPEAKER_11 38:44

Um there's different people smoking them too. Absolutely. Let's talk about that. They are completely different people who roll and smoke hand roll joints than who smoke pre-roll joints. And I would say that the people in the hand roll world are have a higher level of distinguishing what premium or top quality of anything actually is, which makes it easier because the this larger group of people, which I get a ton of people are not stoked on this new group of people who are now making up the cannabis users group. We used to be a much smaller group, and some of us have lost sight that now this that's why pre-rolls are so popular. Like obviously, because the majority of people who want to smoke cannabis nowadays, they like the vape pen, they like the pre-roll joint. You know, that's why I created hash hits, same ideas Adam, gotta create, went from the pure hash joint. I gotta break this up into servings now. It's COVID. People can't share. Who the fuck wants to smoke a full gram of hash other than me, uh, yeah, and Adam, in one shot. Well, not enough people, and so I get that. But yeah, uh, to continue, please, Aaron. I was just kind of chiming in that I think very different. I love that.

SPEAKER_06 39:55

I I love that. Um, I'd love to get into um my analogy for for how I think um pre-rolls are in the market. Uh, but yeah, but I do feel like I'm taking up too much time, and there's so many other people who have who have so much more knowledge.

SPEAKER_05 40:08

No, no, we we're still going with the intros, and and I feel bad. Dude, we have four hours. This show is four hours. I feel bad you called me first. It's supposed to be ladies first, so uh, I've actually never met you, but thank you talk to you a little bit over email. Could you tell us a little bit about your experience in cannabis and life and and weeds and truly, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

I don't uh have as much experience as you guys. Like I started partaking in cannabis when it became legal. I didn't I don't have any like crazy Wild West illegal weed storage. I wish I did, like the most dangerous thing I did was weed in high school when it was not legal yet. Yeah, everything everything that I know about cannabis I learned after it was legalized. Um yeah, I worked for another. Um I've been with the company for five years now, so like I thought it like from the very very part of all the everything, really, everything remembered that and then yeah, with the company for the production and the quality uh left hand on the hand. Yeah, I'm not too um educated on the scientific part of it, but I do have a lot of knowledge on preroges that's like the number one product for AC Solutions, like we make a lot of pre-rolls. Well, I I think it'll make a lot of pre-rolls, but when Adam said you the was it Adam, you said you were making four to five million pre-rolls a month, I was like, oh baby.

SPEAKER_07 42:16

It's so it's okay. Listen, uh everybody listen, there's a there's a lot of white space here, and and um, you know, just to to touch on what uh Marcus said before about the the new sort of era of consumer, listen, guys. That let's let's be real. Any new entrants who are coming into this space, 98% of them are never gonna learn how to roll a joint. That's that's that that that that is that is we are all here skating to where the puck is going, and our marketplace is not getting any smaller. So there's lots of room. And and ANC's got a wonderful history too. I mean, you guys were the first, really the first company to put out a rosin infused joint, which at the time was was like uh unheard of because people were well where everybody was just starting to wrap their head around what dry infusion meant, you guys had already, you know, started to play with wet infusion and get some things going, which was um a really you know, a really interesting area of the market, which now we're seeing with Jeters and GA and and all these other guys, you know, all these other guys who are really dominating the space.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

So a lot of innovation for sure, yeah. ANCA has had a lot of you know, trying new things, trying new ideas, try this build, try that. I really I just learned that um I call them Keith Collinger joins. But they're actually called tarantulas. I like that name way better. That is way cooler than Keith Collins. Maybe I'll suggest it to my team. Can we start calling them tarantulas?

SPEAKER_07 43:58

We called them Fukushima. you know for for those who know you know we called them Fukushima pre-rolls it was a pre-legalization brand and and if if you're watching i know that you're you know looking at uh looking at what's going on here but but that was listen before legalization in at least in toronto there were these pre-rolls that were it was all about pairing the uh infusion with the flower with the coating you know you saw a snake around the edge you saw it rolled in Keefe and it was like you know you smoked it and you went to space because the shit didn't exist you know the the 40 50 60 stuff that's it so you're gonna start an you're gonna start an argument in the comments uh from people from California and people from from Canada on where it came first Transula you know this back and forth I'll tell you something now they're becoming whatever you now they're becoming standards which is crazy which is insane absolutely insane I think that that's you know it's a reflection of what the cannabis consumer wants because there's still the the number one question when a customer steps into the a dispensary is what's the highest potency for lowest price yeah but but you know what but it's changing it's changing but that's that's the number one question well and what also what they want is convenience and that's why they're buying pre-rolls or ice cards and that's why they're buying vape carts right like you said most of these new consumers their first introduction to extracts is gonna be likely from an infused pre-roll or from a vape cart right very true it's your you know it's the way that people and and hello everyone nice to meet you nice to see everybody um you know the the things there's been a lot of really great comments made uh you know thus far and I feel like one of the things that Marcus was touching on that I feel like is important to highlight is that most people that are gonna buy flour need an entry point and to get to that 3.5 gram jar at fifty five plus dollars is a very hard convincing you know like very hard conversation unless they can try it.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

And that's really what it comes down to you know like I came up in an era where there was no testing. It was you show up you put your nose in the bag you looked at it you made you know you felt like you made the right decision based on the parameters that you thought were based on quality which was how it looked smelled felt in your hand and off you went and you know now we have a totally different vernacular that we're trying to fit within and some of these ideologies don't kind of follow with it. So you know to your point the snake around the joint we're looking for high tack but really what someone's really screaming out loud loud inside to to to the bud tender whoever they're talking to is I want an experience that's great. And that's really like cut away all the stuff. That's what I hear and and when I hear like I want the highest tack and I want all this stuff it's it's really it's a disguise. It's like it's it's trying to fit within a a box that they feel like they need to ask these types of questions around and it's not even about that. It's just about the experience. And I find often from just dealing with tons of consumers on a daily basis you know everyone has a different version of that. So I think a pre-roll in an infused pre-roll allows people to kind of get to that place that they're looking for from an experiential point of view. And sure you want to talk about numbers that's fine but that's a COA that happened in at one point in time along the life cycle of that flower or that said product and most likely if you tested that today it's going to be different. And I don't know how anyone hangs their hat on any of these numbers to be honest.

SPEAKER_11 48:02

How about we take it a step further Colin yeah do you think that that COA is anything compared to what you're inhaling once you burn and vaporize the material inhale it into your lungs it's totally not the same COA at all. I guarantee you're probably not getting anything the same as the COA. Which is the neat thing that we've we've locked into this COA so hardcore I I got into this uh when you know God bless Doug Dougie's just been hilariously trolling the rosin community back and forth it's just been hilarious. Personally I thought it was funny. Um but he had mentioned um oh it was shout out Dougie dude he's he's my he's my guy yeah I'm sure we'll get him on here eventually to uh to be ridiculous. I don't want to lose my train of thought though because I had a good point I wanted to make based on what you had just said in regards to Doug.

SPEAKER_05 48:51

Well while you're finding that I just want to say Colin I never thought about someone buying an eighth as a barrier because when I came up like an eighth was the smallest amount you could buy like that's all we knew. It's all we knew and the eighth also never costs 60 bucks someone walking into a store they don't just have to buy the eighth if it's their first time now they need a grinder now they need rollies now they need a tray and they also need to know what to do.

SPEAKER_11 49:22

And so I I never thought about it like that of like oh wow an eighth could be intimidating but a pre-roll at five or ten bucks is something easy now you just need a lighter um but I don't know if you found your thought Marcus sorry no I think I found it for him so we were talking about COAs Marcus and and you were getting really into COAs were all sort of guilty of of being into COAs because I know I was too I thought this idea that oh my god I had this glimpse into the into the future that no one else has and it's well you reminded me of exactly the point I was going to make which was a a BHO guy was upset with a rosin guy and he was like listen like our shit is minus 40 degrees your shit is plus 160 uh we win we have the most volatile organic compounds yeah and then he went in very eloquently and scientifically on how you know because you're using this 160 degrees you're uh totally altering the compounds in every way so I flipped it back on him and I said well how are you uh inhaling this product and he was like I'm dabbing it I'm like oh at what temperature are you dabbing it hotter than 160 degrees and then I just copy and pasted his words and said because you know what 160 degrees and then I wrote all of the things that he wrote in regards to how terrible that heat was and then I suggested I hope you're not uh dabbing at a warmer temperature than 160 degrees like God forbid 450 oh my goodness you must just be destroying all of those volatile organic compounds that you preserved with that minus 40 degrees Celsius temperature anyway I thought it was funny we're just all like it's the more you go ahead no it's just interesting because like when you as you're saying that I was thinking about the analogy is fresh squeezed orange juice and organic oranges versus conventional ground oranges and how you know all these things and and they're all very you know they can get very kind of closely related and you kind of get in this deep rabbit hole of this is better than that or that's different than this.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

At the end of the day it all produces an end product that some people really favor over others and the fact that we have it is awesome. And that's really at the end of the end of the end of the conversation for me.

SPEAKER_07 51:35

It's not about better or worse at that point because there's levels to both sides of that there's terrible BHO there's great BHO there's terrible rosin and there's also terrible you know great i i think I think just to because I'm gonna say this last and then I'm gonna peel off for a bit um but just to to bring that thought into the pre-roll discussion you know there's the the what what I've learned in this um sort of in this experience of the last five years and what's become a guiding philosophy for us is you know there's going to be weed of various potencies of various flavor types of various bud structures and and people are going to have different preferences. And you know regardless of if if someone's asking for the highest potency at the lowest price or the big you know the loudest flavor or the most CBD or whatever it is at the end of the day what our job as pre-roll manufacturers is is to make a consistent smoking experience from start to finish. So whether or not it is the most premium quads, you know, that's the you know the sticky icky or you you've got some outdoor flour that's been you know you've you've added distillate and flavors into it, that smoking experience should be the same. And if you're pay if you're a consumer you're paying your your hard earned money for for a joint um you know the cherry shouldn't fall off the joint shouldn't run the joint shouldn't clog. Doesn't matter if the quality of the flour the only thing that should change in the joint is the quality of the inputs. How it's consumed how it's smoked that should be fixed. And that's that's you know I think that that's really what probably all of us here uh believe and all of us here are are here to talk about which is how do we get consistency in this product that has so much variability in its inputs right and and and how do we improve you know we're a co-manufacturer our customers are the brands are the licensed producers are the guys who are out there you know with their feet on the street how do we make them and their customers happy because at the end of the day what we're all doing and what is really cool because you know call me crazy but I think we're all of us here are having a real impact on the market having a genuine impact on the consumer because why does anybody smoke a joint or why does anybody smoke weed at all right maybe they're depressed maybe they're excited maybe they're celebrating something maybe they're dealing with anxiety maybe they're dealing with physical pain maybe they're dealing with hunger and they need you know they you know they're they're dealing with a chemotherapy or some sort of there's so many different reasons why people smoke weed. So as as creators of these products um we're creating those moments for those people and you know it it it gives me great pride to know that we're creating five million moments a month for different consumers across Canada that that that's not uh that's a weight we at at at Jointcraft carry you know very too close to our heart. So so creating that consistent experience where when you spend your your five dollars or ten dollars on a joint um that experience of consuming that product has no negativity and and and and what you bought is what you get that's that's what drives us so um anyway nice instead Adam I gonna say for the first few years I never made it into the stores because I guess I didn't need to or whatever but the first couple times I shopped at a store it was generally to buy joints because I was on a camping trip and oh my god I forgot my weed box and I don't want to buy another grinder and another tray so I was buying pre-rolls and my first couple experiences buying pre-rolls I was just like oh my god like I remember I opened one box and it wasn't twisted properly and half the joint was in the box and limp crutches and loose rolls and I was just like wow there's a lot of bad well this is going back a couple years but Marcus I'm gonna say something a lot of people told me how are you gonna go on a podcast for four hours and I see why you need four hours now because we're an hour in we haven't even finished the intros bro it'll say I'm gonna stop talking so you guys will have lots of we got Robbie Creed and Colin um still still for intros if you guys don't mind.

SPEAKER_08 56:14

Yeah I'll go next for sure thank you so um Robbie Fisher um coming to you from my uh basement office here in Calgary um I was born and raised in Winnipeg Manitoba like Marcus uh but moved here right when I was graduating high school in 1999 um when I first got into working in cannabis it was almost a decade ago now I I used to work in the music industry I used to throw nightclub events in the electronic music uh industry and we used to sell all of our tickets at the head shops back in the day and so we were very connected to the um that that culture side of the cannabis uh pre-legalization where you know we were we were really close with a lot of the the biggest head shops in Calgary and that's where we sold all our tickets through and we always kind of dreamed of oh man one day we should open up our own head shop you know when legalization happens we should have our own dispensary these are some of the dreams that we had uh way back when and then um eventually again before legalization we did realize our first dream and opened up a head shop um selling glass in Calgary and you know this is a total full circle um moment and event in my canvas career for sure because back then when you know our store was open seven days a week every Sunday just in the background we would have hash church going on so it's really cool that I've now come to a point where I'm a guest on the show. So I feel very humbled and I appreciate uh the invite uh Kyle and thanks for having us Marcus um but yeah so that was kind of my introduction in into um working in cannabis and then um when COVID happened and the music stopped uh that's when I made the full shift into a full-time career in cannabis and I got a job um working for Simply Solventless. Um and so uh that was five years ago when we started we were working in Sundial's original facility and we were working under their uh umbrella of licenses so we didn't even have our own license um and we were just uh you know doing uh solventless extracts essentially we were um you know collecting dry sift so we were spinning cannabis material using alchemist 420s and collecting dry sift and we were washing fresh frozen material that uh had piled up across the country there was a lot of fresh frozen material that people were growing it in with the you know field of dreams type of mentality and so we saw a bit of a a hole or a gap there so we came in heavy with you know um three low temp ospreys and we started helping these people out who had this problem of all this fresh frozen cannabis that they had grown and no one to to sell it to or nothing to do with it. So um that's where we started and um you know over time we started uh launching our in-house brands and then we ended up having our merger with um A and C. We originally were doing pre-rolls in-house uh when we started our um our in-house brands we were doing the uh live raws and infused pre-rolls like you're saying and um eventually we started using ANC because it was so difficult and so time consuming and uh you know we tried different things we tried knockboxes we tried the I think STM rocket box you know but you know when you talk start talking about the differences of uh real commercial production versus just like rolling joints at home you know I started I'm like you Marcus I don't really consume a lot of uh cannabis by smoking anymore I haven't for you know almost 30 years myself um but on occasion when I still do I I like it to be an enjoyable experience I've become way more of a canvas snob when it comes to smoking a joint um so uh unless it's really exciting to me because it's something different I haven't tried before something exotic or something that I've longed for that I've missed that I tried once upon a time way back when and and I can't seem to find anymore. That's kind of one of the cool mystiques or whatever about uh my canvas experience anyways is just all the different uh strains and flavors and um experiences that come from that. But yeah, you know I started my day with just a couple pinners that were rolled by one of my best friends who's also named Robbie. To me I was like you know I rolled a lot of joints when I was smoking joints but it's been so long when I first got invited to this show the first thing I did is I called my friend Robbie I said Robbie you got to roll a couple joints for me so that's what I started my morning with is a couple uh hand rolled straight pinners.

SPEAKER_11 1:01:45

Um Adam that was cool hearing Adam's story I didn't realize that uh joint craft was the same group that started pinners so that was cool to hear that sort of evolution of their journey but um again going back to commercial production the only joints that we ever even attempted to roll at SSC were cones and and that's one of the big differences when we start talking about um commercial um joints is the straight joint versus the cone and you know in our uh path or journey we had seen similar style um uh you know cones or whatever to these but actually not in the cone shape just straight ones and um again if you're using you know when we had the rocket box the worst thing about the rocket box no offense to the people that make the rocket boxes are a great machine for the right purposes or whatever but one of our biggest problems with the rocket box was was the waste and the destruction that we had to throw away right and worst design I've ever seen in in in all of cannabis man I'll be real SDM you guys come at me whatever you want to do but I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in waste just seeing the the material drop through to the bottom to hit your metal particulate panel that then put metal into the material it's like get a knockoff dude listen I'm not even gonna lie when he mentioned the Alchemist 420 which are these square tumblers also the worst design in the history of cannabis and I don't give a fuck I had six of them I can say this exactly I agree square the the membranes that that that the fronts went on you couldn't like remove them and they all hold on but we customized those and we made them better of course of course and they were garbage it was better than the 255s I feel bad I feel bad because we recently just uh sold one on Craigslist. Oh yeah and I I felt bad of the guy I was giving it to you know yeah they're a nightmare for a federally regulated system they really are if you're in the black or gray market and you could just throw material into that thing and first of all a square columnar is very rough and tough you're you're you're you're tumbling in a way that is extremely aggressive to the material because of the way it's falling on these sharp 90 degree angles which also makes it simultaneously the hardest machine to clean in the game in the game. Like it's like the the amount of time that you have to spend cleaning this machine and I've been I'm telling you for a fact you would do it in a rag and the I could come into your facility and make hash fast on the bottom. I could come into your facility and make hash faster with an eight foot by four foot screen that I lay on the floor I throw material down and I rake it I can make four kilos every 10 minutes people are always blown away that do you know what people paid for those machines too much. Oh yeah a lot when the screens break man there's things alone double digit millions for those particular machines right now that's those screens those screens were so expensive too if you bought them now you know like oh and how about that so you didn't poke a hole screens weren't big enough the holes weren't big enough so you were also throwing away a ton of your material because back in the day when people made dry sift they they weighed what they got and they counted that as their yield what they did not do is look at it with a microscope and realize that their 20% yield of material was a 2% yield of heads which is you know you gotta really you want to use a 200 to a 250 micron screen pull a lot of material and then clean it and then you've got a bigger initial yield um of heads which is you know there's still people using 150 and 160 uh screens uh for dry sifting 180 yeah but but but for but no but there's different

SPEAKER_08 1:06:00

Know my dad always taught me to use the right tool for the job, right? And there's there's different jobs out there for different intended purposes, right? There's a lot of people who are trying to make the cheapest tarantula they can make and put out onto the market, right? Of course, because they want to save the most money for all the freaking juice. But that doesn't mean they want to waste material.

SPEAKER_11 1:06:22

If they were shown, hey, I can show you how to get way more material and it won't cost you any more money. I can promise you each and every one of those people, because they're so focused on getting the cheapest, which means they want to make the most, they're gonna listen every time. People just didn't know when they bought those Alchemist 420s, you know, uh, in regards to actually and they sold it perfect because it was all about like selling it into the federally legal, right? They created an all stainless. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:49

It was the stainless dude. That's what got us all. We all got representative anchored on the stainless. They're like, oh, stainless.

SPEAKER_11 1:06:55

In the meantime, I still use resonators in the federally legal market, as well as bubble bags, not stainless steel screens. And guess what? They work great, they work just fine. Yeah, we don't need to have stainless.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:09

So let's hear from let's hear an intro from Creed if we can. I would love to hear an intro.

SPEAKER_11 1:07:15

Even though I've known Creed quite a while, I still want to hear your intro, dude.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:19

Wow. Um, guys, damn. Uh fuck so many tangents that I want to like go off on, just uh based on all the things we covered. Um uh first hash church experience, obviously. Um known Marcus since I was quite young. Um, I've been in the cannabis space uh probably since I was roughly 12 years old, um, in and out of the OG cannabis culture days, alongside activists like uh Greg Williams, RIP, and uh Michelle Rainey and uh people like that. Um my parents were early cannabis cup judges uh and things like that. So I had access um to some of the most exotic cultivars, you know, for the time um when I was quite young, uh, which led me to like quite a bit of uh cannabis science exposure. Um I became a dedicated weed nerd pretty early. And uh like so many of us here, I'm sure, um, I'm you know, a pure product of prohibition. Um uh you know, I'm I'm someone who became you know fascinated by the um regulation and distribution and attempt attempts to control uh the market. Um started selling cannabis at a very early age. Um I know uh it was mentioned earlier, but you know, from the golden the golden days where you could walk into you know some of these unlicensed facilities with duffel bags and uh walk out with cash in your hands if the product was good. Um when it comes to extracts and things like that, that's really my specialty. Um some of my earliest experiences with separating resin uh were through mechanical separation, obviously through exposure to products like the bubble bags from Marcus, uh big salute, obviously quadruple OG uh there. Um from that point on, uh I had some of the earliest experience with closed loop systems uh through companies like Iron Fist, based out of Washington. Um and I'd say as early as 2009, 2010, maybe I was, you know, experiencing uh commercial production with all stainless steel equipment. Um we were running passively at the time. This is way before we knew how to heat and cool these systems uh appropriately. Um uh extraction basically was my main thing for the longest time. Uh got me in a lot of trouble. A lot of trouble. And uh anyone who's you know uh been in the lab a lot um understands the hazards um throughout my process of uh learning, you know, the ins and outs of this business. I was involved in many, you know, basically near-death experiences, trial by literal fire, I guess you could say. Um, but uh I learned at an accelerated rate and ended up building a lot of labs during the um you know pre-legalization period for various organized factions, so to speak. Um, you know, which was a really, really cool experience. Uh, although it led me down the wrong path. And eventually I was uh incarcerated for my involvement in these activities. Uh and upon a small period and then uh a two and a half year house arrest sentence. Um, I was immediately essentially headhunted by uh a publicly traded holdings company that had uh a lot of diversified cannabis interest. Uh this was at Astra Labs, um, at which point we developed several brands, um, a lot of category-leading brands in Canada. Um, probably developed close to 90 or 100 SKUs, all centrally distributed uh with that one LP. Uh moved on uh through recommendations uh from people like Kyle to the laboratory that I'm at now, which is Leaf Infusions. Uh we have several brands under our umbrella, uh High Key being our concentrate focused brand with some pre-rolls. We have Biggies, which is uh live resin and various uh minor cannabinoid infused gummies, and then we have a non-psychoactive brand called Trophy, uh that's essentially all CBD focused. Um uh I I really like what we were getting into earlier um about the uh the end user experience of products like pre-rolls. It's such a subjective uh experience um and such an interesting topic. Uh there's so many variables when it comes to creating uh a regulated kind of end user experience, and we're working with an organic input uh that changes you know by the season. Um, anyways, I think it's very interesting. We approach it from kind of a deconstruction and reconstruction um ideology where we're trying to somehow perfect or redesign this plant that has millions of years of evolution on us. Um, our quest for purity and isolation only leads to uh advanced rates of degradation and oxidation and things like that. So uh there's so many things we can get into. There were so many good points made earlier. Um, really stoked to be here. And uh yeah, that's uh just the cliff notes.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:37

Well said, sir. I understand you're you're so excited for Hash Church, you could barely sleep last night. So I gotta say, you're pretty well spoken this morning.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:46

Thank you. This is the earliest I've been up in so long, I can't tell you. Uh I host nightclubs on the weekends as an MC, and I essentially came straight from the club uh to Hash Church. So Hallelujah.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:02

So so Creed, before we hear from Colin, yeah, I'm gonna put you on the spot. Do you do you got a little flow for pure flow, a little uh off the top of the dome this morning?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:12

Oh man, you can't um it's not a party trick. You can't just snap your fingers and tell me to jump, but this is something my uh hip hop is uh my life, my my absolute obsession outside of cannabis. Um, it's a complete lifestyle for me. It's incorporated in every product that I design. Uh, it's the basis of all the brands that I develop. Um, and uh for many years I was a full-time touring rapper, um trying to cover up my real profession, which was large-scale extraction. Uh, but uh yeah, good times. Uh I ended up getting banned from every single nightclub and live music venue in the country uh for attempting to conceal my income uh through uh music, which which which led to some civil forfeiture and uh some seizure of assets, and uh this is a whole nother story we could get into. But uh yeah, music is a big part of my life too. And uh yeah, thanks, Kyle. Kyle's a hot spitter too. Kyle's got bars, he doesn't look like it, but this man can actually spit. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:14

Oh, dude. Well, if you get inspired later in the show about Pure Flow, you know, no, no, not to put you on the spot, but appreciate you being here, dude. And thanks for having me. Hats off to to Creed and his whole team at at Leaf and Fusions. I just want to say, um, when I first got my hands on Pureflow, I made a bold claim at MJ BizCon. I said, I will sell this product in Q1. And um thank you, Creed, because you you waited, you're like, I think you were down to two days to make a decision by the time I got you those samples.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:51

Yeah, so I've already commercialized the Pure Flow, uh, what Kyle's getting into here. Um, I got my hands on it very, very early. Uh, thank you, Kyle. And um, I'm always looking for I mean, as a product designer and uh product developer, you just gotta stay one step ahead of these other LPs because they will eat your lunch uh right off your table so quick. Um, so Kyle and FTL, shout out to FTLD. Um, they've been right there with me in lockstep as I've designed products um, you know, for so many brands in the industry. I've used his Acera carts uh for a plethora of SKUs, and I recommend it. Uh, I'm a huge advocate for that uh cartridge. But uh yeah, you gotta stay one step ahead of the uh the uh competition. This is the first kind of advancement I've seen, I guess you could say, um, for uh pre-roll technology. Um, I am a religious dabber and extract smoker. So for me to um kind of fall in love with smoking uh joints again, it's yeah, it's very interesting for me. But we tapped on you know a homogenized, regulated experience when it comes to uh the consumer experience. This is the closest I've had to um uh incredibly consistent pre-roll experience. Um, and I've done uh a lot of RD uh when it comes to uh peer flow. This is basically well over a hundred roaches in this ashtray from the last month of product development. But uh yeah, I'll I'll let the next man go. Uh well wait, wait a second, Creed.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:18

I just want to ask you you you you said you got peer flow in the market today. A couple things there. I understand you concocted some kind of triple infusion into Pure Flow, and I'd like to learn more about that triple infusion and what was the inspiration behind that. And then also if you could touch upon the first couple drops, and I don't know. I haven't I was gonna search Reddit last night to see if there's any market feedback on the products you put in the market, but I understand you're already in a couple provinces with Pureflow.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:48

Uh yeah, for sure. I have uh three SKUs on direct delivery uh in BC, and uh we have two SKUs that just got picked up on Central at the OCS. Uh so we're already rolling these uh these cones in volume. Um, they're gonna hit the streets any day. Uh when it comes to the infusions, uh, I'll try and keep it really short and sweet. Uh I'm uh uh ideal a cannabis purist ideologically. Um I like to keep it true to strain. I'm working with only fresh frozen inputs aside for the dry cannabis flour I put in my pre-rolls. Uh, I like to essentially uh acquire the cannabis flour in its fresh frozen state and extract it uh for its terpene fraction and its THCA. Uh then I use that dry cured flour of that same cultivar for the base of my pre-roll, and I essentially just re-add the HTE and the THCA from that cultivar. So it's just a deconstructed and reconstructed, uh engineered product, I guess is is what you could refer to it as. Uh, this is just surely for the sake of stability and uh large-scale commercialization, but it's pretty effective and I think it produces uh a really, really good product. I wake up thinking about it and I want to smoke one as soon as I roll out of bed. So, anyways, I love it.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:04

You just reminded me of a cool Keith interview I heard about 20 years ago, but he was talking about something else.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:10

Um that guy's weird. That guy's really weird.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:13

Dude, I I saw him at a Fortune Sound Club in Chinatown there one one year, and you know, the club club last call was 1:30 and it closes at 2. Motherfucker showed up at 2 30 in the morning, dude, to do his to do his set. But on that note, Marcus, uh, really appreciate again you you inviting me and and some of my colleagues on the show. And um one of the panelists that hasn't introduced himself yet, I understand is a regular on your program, uh, Colin Palmer. And I want to apologize, Colin. I shipped you those Pureflow samples like 10 days ago, and I told my logistics manager they must arrive by next Friday. But it looks to me like customs pinched them in Kentucky, but they should be at your house by Tuesday, Wednesday, next week.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:04

All good, man. Well, it's it's good to be here, and uh yeah, I don't I I for those that don't know me, I've been a lifelong cannabis uh user, uh started in the mid-90s and uh been a cultivator since the since around 96, 97, and uh hashmaker since around 98-99 is really when I I use first used Mila's setup, and then quickly one of my great friends, Scott uh M, who's who Marcus actually knows, introduced me to the bubble bags, and then I quickly here we are, all these years later, I became fast friends with Marcus online, and you know, it's been a journey, but uh but I've been making, you know, cannabis products professionally, you know, since the inception of of legalization, um you know, uh selling them into the regulated markets, but even before then, you know, I ran delivery services and you know I've I've lived lived it, you know, as I call it through uh the evolution of of you know what we do. I mean, which which is I think create new ways to experience um the plant, you know, and I think that's what is so awesome about the act of creating things with the plant is that there's there's many ways to do this. And you know, there's a there's a plethora of things that have yet to be done. You know, um so as much as we think it's all been done, it still keeps evolving in a really healthy, awesome way. Um so it's it's really cool. You know, I'm I'm excited to be here and still do what I do. Um and you know, I I was an artist and a musician and someone that spent a lot of time making music in the studio, and I still am sitting in a studio right now. And it's no different.

SPEAKER_11 1:21:01

We haven't seen your studio in so long, you've had that background on your I miss your keyboards.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:08

It's the y'all, you know, they're here, they're just you know, they're here.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:12

I I play them, you know, I I make a lot of music, but um what does that background say? DL S N Y VL S N Y Vessel Life Science, New York.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:23

And tell us about Vessel Life Life Sciences a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:26

Yeah, so Vessel uh is really the name of it, and Vessel Life Science is the overarching kind of the the studio that Vessel is inside of, and and Vessel is really just an innovation house for extraction and product development. And we have launched um as of 2025, we've launched our brand into the New York state, and we've done flour, uh jarred flour so far, rosin and live rosin in uh in AIOs in all in ones. So that's really our main purpose in New York is to bring high-quality extracts in the form of in you know solveness form to the market and living soil organic flour uh in jar form. So so that's kind of our focus in New York, but um but yeah, I've been a formulator for quite a quite a long time. I mean, I'm I'm trying to dumb down my intro here because it's not the show isn't about me, it's about you guys. But um, but yeah, you know, I've been a formulator for quite a long time, and and it's something I spend a a lot of time on, just uh almost every day creating new products.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:34

Um let me ask you something, Colin. If if you get those samples and you get inspired, could you see yourself formulating a living soil organic flour with some beautiful rosin and making an infused pre-roll?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:48

Yeah, actually it's it's it's our next skew for for us is is is launching the pre-roll because you know getting into an expensive jar of flour is really difficult for consumers that are berated with um false advertising and and just bad products that they have to wade through and spend money on to ultimately find out that they don't want that product. Um so it's nice to offer flour we know is is is really high quality, really deliciously tasty all the way down to the last hit. But I'd like to offer that in a more convenient form. I think what you guys were touching on it earlier is that maybe Marcus said it's like the the consumers are looking for convenience. Um it's just it's just very human of people to want to do that, you know. So you can't blame people for wanting convenience. So it's up to us to make a better product so it actually gets to them the way that we want it to. Um and I think that's the the the hardest challenge I see is I didn't want to do a pre-roll, I'll be honest. I really didn't want to do one. And it's because of that that reason, because it's very hard to put that on yourself as a producer. It's on me, man, to get that to the the dispo, to make sure the dispo gets it to the consumer in the way that I know that joint should get to them. So that's you know, we've done a good job of doing it with the jar. So what's that version for the pre-roll and in the finished good? It's a hard thing to admit to yourself as a as a brand and a producer that it's on you, but it is. Um, and I think that's most likely what's wrong with the market is that we're expecting people to buy stuff and we're not being intentional enough behind the product. So I'm excited to try what you're, you know, the the vessel, as I call it, uh that you're providing for us to put everything together and and really, you know, put it out into the into the world. So we've been working on on a pre-roll for like the past year, trying to get like the right container for it to go in so it it's it's fresh, you know. Like, how does that work? You know, like that's one of the biggest things that we as a team kind of been focusing on is how does this thing we see behind the scenes arrive to the consumer two months later? Like, what does that look like? You know, because it sometimes happens, you know, these these stores, you'll sell in product, but it they don't sell it in 30 days, they sell it in 60. You know, and that's to me, we think about that every day. It's why if you know retail doors work with us, they always comment on why like our our packaging and how it's packaged in cases, and we steal cases of 25. So you're not breaking a case of 50 open to then give one jar. It's it's a it's really a Russian doll method, as we call it. So you're cracking a case at a time. You should be able to sell 25 eighths man, you know. So that's kind of the thought. And then we think about these things very intricately because it it affects the flower, it affects all the work that we've put in in the in the cultivation side of things, to then have some dude go on Reddit and be like, that sucked. You know, that's that's the last thing we need. Um, because it's hard, you know, most people don't realize like there's so much blood, sweat, and tears put into this that the last thing I want is someone being like, that was subpar. Because that means there's somewhere along the way we didn't do something correctly. Um and we, you know, we talk a lot about that. So it's a it's a lot of self-reflection that we have, but we care about the products, and then when we make products, it's the same thing. You know, it it's we're hash makers at heart, so detail is like kind of just everything to us, you know. Um so yeah, we're uh we're doing doing it small, we're trying to keep it lean. Um, you know, by design. I don't really want to be in 300 stores all at once, and it means I I don't I can't touch 300 doors. Um, so we're trying to take a different approach than we have in the past in other markets and you know just keep it tight and keep it real.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:59

I think that's uh a super adequate uh explanation of the psychology of a modern product designer.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:07

100%. I can't thank you enough on that because uh one of my biggest one of my biggest gripes about the pre-roll world is the fact that uh what comes out of uh you know personally, what comes out of my machine, which I believe is perfect, then sits on a shelf for two months and gets sold, and all of a sudden it's it's uh of of lesser quality. And I that's that's representative of everything down the line, though, you know, and and I don't want it to reflect us. So yeah, no, I I agree. Thank you so much because you you you're one of the very few people that are taking uh you know control of that situation.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:43

Yeah, you we also think about like what much like we had this conversation two weeks ago, like much like hash, there not every varietal is right for making hash. Right? I would say the same thing for a pre roll. Once you grind certain pre rolls up, that volatility is. Just ripped open and it's no longer there. But there are certain varietals that you can do that with that stay really, really intact, and then you can put it into a conical tube or whatever, and it stays fairly fresh. Right? And I don't know if anyone's ever thought about this before, but I am starting to kind of feel that there is perhaps varietals for specific skew builds, right? That may not, yeah, like we want a papaya to go across everything, but like maybe there's a phenotype somewhere that can do that, right? I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:37

You can't kind of it's about the the caliction.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:43

It's the kind of stuff I think about, you know, it's like what we all are chasing these these ideas of like certain bucket flavors, right? If you want to call it that at this stage, but you know, a consumer is never really getting down to that exact plant, and that's really where we come into play, and we're like, okay, so this plant's gonna go to these things, but it's not gonna go to these other things over here, you know. So just view for thought.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:11

I don't know if any of anyone's thought like that, but um, I often find myself like thinking like that, whether it's you know no, it's great, you know, flower genetic genetic selection is one of the most important aspects of this. It's like really it's fire in, fire out. You have to be selective. You can't just like you know, not every cultivar is a dumper when you wash it, you know. Not every cultivar has a good terp spectrum. And like I said, once you rip these things apart from each other, they become so unstable. And like you said, uh some cultivars have better natural defense mechanisms to like being deconstructed uh than others for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:49

Yeah, like you know, really gassy forward varietals seem to grind up well and hold their their weight, you know, fruity more, you know, with more alcohols or other analyte things that are very fleeting, they're less so, right? So finding you know certain plants that can hold the characteristics of these compounds, I think would be a great focus for some brands out there.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:14

Yeah, and curing is a huge factor in stability as well. I mean, like post-harvest handling is incredibly important when it comes to stability, and like you said, these gassy forward um, you know, varietals, uh, you know, especially like the F2 uh Hindu cushions and that you know things from the mountainous regions, these were drying on stock, you know, like being harvested after like you know, massive flowering cycles, and they became stable through this drying and curing process. This is like the kind of thing we have to replicate and consider when we're thinking about yeah, using them as input.

SPEAKER_08 1:30:48

This is why packaging is super important too, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:30:52

Yeah, packaging is super important, but it's it's it's so you know, like I I love packaging. Like I want to use these, like pot, you know, I wanted to use these potvacs for my flour, but they're just you know cost prohibitive, right?

SPEAKER_08 1:31:06

And there's and honestly, after doing tests, like they didn't perform as well as other jars that some might say you're pulling a little bit of the terp out every time you that is the one, yes, and so that's why like rosenheads will say a Myron jar is still better, or even you know, I think Low Temp did that um terp uh retention test, and they found that the U-line one ounce glass jar was like just about the best in terms of terp retention. Um, but yeah, I mean we can't blame the consumer for wanting consistency, and I'm gonna go back a little in this.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:46

I think our homies at 710 Labs have done a really good job. Like, this is a great, great idea. Like the idea. Is that for pre-roll? Yeah, this is their pre-roll. You know, I still have one in here from them. Big shout out to Brad and those guys. And is that a viewing window on the top, or is it a pop? No, this this is a pop back job, okay. Um, which I think is really smart, you know. Like, yo, I mean I haven't seen the tall ones like that. That's nice. You know, little two-gram donut.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:14

Marcus, you put out a uh episode, uh a video on ASTM hash making the other day with your gloves, and those pop jars, like if they do rob turps, I'd I'd pop it a hundred times a day if I had one of those. It's it's easy.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:28

I don't know if the if the if it's robbing turps, it's because what we're really talking about is how well they can steal it, you know, and and some air out, yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:37

Yeah, I mean that's necessarily robbing turps, uh but I do know it's creating like a it's creating a completely contained uh uh uh uh center after this. So I mean, if it whatever it robs, it's also I would say kind of pressurizing at the same time, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_11 1:32:55

I know that whatever you're smelling, you're not smoking. Correct. That's all I know. I told this in Boston Ecan, these dudes were walking around with baller jars, and I'm just like, bro, like, why don't you just put half a gram in a jar and then you can open and let everyone smell that? Because right now everyone's just like they're literally trying to like take all the terps from your baller jars. I was just like, dude, like that flex is the incorrect flex. The flex is preserve them all for the dab and let people have like a little smell with their nose.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:26

So you're talking about they're walking around or they're this much or something.

SPEAKER_11 1:33:31

Yeah, they were walking around with ounce jars, like big fucking jars, and cracking them open and leaving them open for like and and poking them. And I was just like, ah, like I feel like we could do better. Like, you are the same person complaining that there's no cold supply chain, and you're literally like volatizing your volatiles, just close that shit up, let's smoke it.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:52

The Rosin, the rosin culture is a bit about the flex, too. Like, let's be honest, these guys like like the like real, like heady rosin boys. Like, it's the flex is part of it. I remember like in the early days, everybody was like supreme, like bathing ape design her clothing. Like, that was kind of the the heady rosin boy flex, having big baller jars design her drip, like you can have big baller jars, just don't crack them open a hundred times an hour.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:16

The best thing are the blue baller jars, in my opinion. The blue ballers.

SPEAKER_08 1:34:22

Um am I the only one who enjoys the novelty of taking a dab and then taking the jar and smelling it right after I exhale my dab to to maybe get to enjoy some of the what I'm smelling, not what I'm smoking, in the same well.

SPEAKER_11 1:34:43

What I do personally is I have a special pipe that's been designed for me where I can take the rosin dab, but on the other side, I'll take the flour or the resin and I'll vaporize it in a totally different way. Usually it's the flour and it usually it's the the hash. You take a full melt rip of hash, and then you take a vape. I I did it with Renee. Though that was my favorite cultivar to do it with. I'd rip the full melt, but I wanted that the full melt wasn't the same as the flour. And you know, very, very rarely does the smell line up to the taste, line up to the odor in the air after the taste. They are they are often all quite unique. Sometimes I like the smell in the air after the exhale more than I like the smell in the jar. But yeah, I think you're not the only one. I think lots of people are doing various versions of what you just mentioned, you know, trying to get those flavor profiles uh in as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:39

I'll do it, I'll do it for you right now, just because I took a There you go.

SPEAKER_11 1:35:42

There you go.

SPEAKER_08 1:35:42

I was just gonna say it goes back to what Colin was talking about, just in terms of like not every cultivar is best suited for every skew or format of consuming or extracting, right? Like not even a bug, just there's certain most strains aren't dumpers.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:03

Like like Apple Fritter is a really good example. Like, I do I'm not a huge apple freighter person, like I just don't it the it's amazing on the plant, it's an incredible plant to grow, but post uh dry cure the experience is very uh just lackluster for me and comparatively to other things in our menu. Other people have said that it's one of their favorite things, which is really cool to hear because I just don't pick up on these like muted notes that that it throws. It just isn't a varietal that I really truly love. I don't know. It's it's it's smell like I have it right here, it smells like apples. But when I when I smoke it, I don't get that deep apple note that I'm looking for on the nose. You know, but um, you know, if someone else loves that, that's amaz that's great, you know. There's no wrong is what I'm trying to get at. You know, it's just it's just what your preferences are.

SPEAKER_08 1:37:03

But even like uh, you know, we've had our struggles in the early days with uh finding compatible hardware that would work with our rosin sauce, and again, cultivar to cultivar, some strains were working better with a particular type of hardware than others, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:22

Well, it's also our understanding of how to decarb is has evolved. Um that you know, and paired with the right hardware, which we could have a whole side quest. Hardware application is coming. But we're on we're on a we're on a pre-roll show, so let's keep it straight. But um, but yeah, no, I can agree with you. I think hardware, I ended up designing my own hardware. It's just I have a background in design and and you know, um, so I am lucky to be able to like I'm working on these now, which are postless 510s, you know, and you know, there's a lot to kind of figure out here. There's there's so much to explore. But back to the pre-roll thing, I wanted to kind of ask some questions because I had some curious curiosity here, and I didn't get to get them, so I don't really know. Um when you were designing them, were you thinking of of airflow in the you know the filter area and how when you fill a pre-roll and how the conical air flows through it, how it creates that vortex? How did you guys design the the the you know the crutch down on the bottom? You know, what was what was the thought behind that? Because that's the most important thing that I see at a pre-rolls is like the shape of the of how it comes out, like the conical aspect of it, and then how does that airflow go into the actual um you know the NP and filter piece?

SPEAKER_05 1:38:54

Yeah, well, that's um that's a a bit of a big topic, and full disclosure, uh I'm not taking any credit for being the designer of this product. I'm uh let's call it a representative of Pureflow. So I'm I'm distributing the product uh in Canada and North America and you know really globally. But right now, I think the the pre-roll markets of Canada and and USA dominate um from a global perspective. So the technology behind Pureflow is actually stemming from another industry of uh a brown leaf smokable, which is quite popular around the world. So a lot of money and research went into the design of this style of acetate membrane in order to capture the hell heavier particles of smoke, namely tar and other um molecules that we don't necessarily want to be collecting in our lungs. And then what ended up happening is uh another company got involved, and this company happens to be uh the most adept pre-roller in the globe. And so it's an interesting uh dynamic, the supply chain of pre-rolls. I don't know if you guys have really looked into it uh uh in depth of how it works moving around the world, but it it's interesting to me. I used to be in the diamond trade at one time um after getting roasted with a couple houses back uh in the mid-90s. I had to take a break from growing and dove into the diamond world where it's like a diamond from northern Canada is shipped to you know Israel or Antwerp, Belgium to be polished, then it's shipped to another location to be graded before it's shipped back to the USA to be sold. So to use that analogy from the global diamond trade of how the product moves around the world, the pre-roll paper itself, the reams of paper come from a very specific region of Europe, which is basically northern Spain and southern France. There's this rich history going back a hundred years of making burnable papers for smoking things. So the paper is moving from Europe over to Asia to be rolled, and these cones that we're talking about, pure flow are actually hand rolled. So there's an art form that goes into that. So this company that specializes in hand rolling uh cones got a hold of this technology from the other company, and then there's a global utility patent patent on the cone-shaped version of this acetate membrane for cone-shaped pre-rolls, and that is the Pure Flow brand, and that's the brand that we're representing now in Canada and across the world. Very excited about it. But to answer your question, specifically, Colin, about the science behind it, the cone-shaped filter has an inverse cone inside of it, so that the hole facing the biomass is smaller than the hole that we're drawing from at the bottom. So that cone within the cone creates a uh venturi vortex inside the filter so that the heavier thickness of the membrane that touches the biomass is already pulling smoke through it because it's like a honeycomb of membrane. Like, think of it like a puma stone or something like that. It's it's getting drawn through all these chambers that capture the heavy particles of smoke. But then also inside the filter, it's getting spun so that that that adds extra surface contact from the smoke, so it's filtering on the inside, but also speeding up and cooling down the smoke. But because the filters hollow, it also is an unrestricted draw, so there's no sort of is that you sharing Marcus? Could you please go to the brand new website that just dropped? It's called stellarjays.com. Um I just want to give hats off to my send me the link.

SPEAKER_11 1:43:15

I will send you because actually we've been all looking for it, it's almost impossible to find if you just Google for it. So people in the chat were like, Can you put up the link? And then the link that I found was your distribution uh company that had part of me.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:30

I I just want to say um, you know, business is a team sport. I'm I'm here representing a company of hard-working people. There's uh nine of us working on this project, and my team's been working this morning. They've just launched the the new Stellar Jays uh website during this show.

SPEAKER_11 1:43:49

Well, ship it over and I'll send it out to all the people.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:52

I just put it in, I just put it in the chat here.

SPEAKER_11 1:43:54

Oh, perfect.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:55

Yeah, thank you, Marcus. Because actually, there's a really good visual there on stellarjays.com. That's s-t-e-l-l-ar-js.com. There's a great visual.

SPEAKER_11 1:44:08

Uh I put it, I put it. Yeah, I'll open it right now. I put it in the actual YouTube chat because the chat you put it in is perfect, but it's only for us here on the panel.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:17

Thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_11 1:44:18

Dropped, and you want me to open it as well?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:20

You're like a techno wizard, aren't you, Marcus? You've got you know, we're in Zoom, but we're on YouTube, and the whole universe is happening right now.

SPEAKER_10 1:44:28

Just trying to keep it together, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:30

Kyle's mind is just blown, he just can't believe it. He's just never seen the technology before.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:35

So scroll down on that right there. There's pure flow right there. That's really good timing. So this shows you a cutaway visual of what's happening inside that filter column.

SPEAKER_11 1:44:47

That is what I had open on your page as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:50

So you mentioned there's like it's it's a hollow vortex, but you pack the joint completely full, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:44:56

There's no it's you're not so that that cutaway is everything behind the sticker. So you see the sticker, that's our little stellar j bird on the crutch. And so the cutaway is everything the filter, and then all your biomass is going in the cone above the sticker.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:13

And so understood. I just you mentioned there's a hollow center, so I just want to make sure because I in my mind when I hear hollow center, I I look that's literal for me. I'm like, okay, so I'm filling around something in the center of this thing that's conical.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:27

No, I think I think I think paper is an open paper colin.

SPEAKER_11 1:45:31

Where the only piece that you see on the right is the filter where the blue sticker with yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:36

I under I understood.

SPEAKER_11 1:45:37

Yeah, it's just a big open paper, you can just slap a dump herb in there.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:41

Where so now I did before before I move on, I just want to point out that this product is a branding darling because the traditional way to customize a joint has been to print on the cardboard crutch that lives underneath the paper, so that even on the whitest of paper, that that brand is coming through the paper somewhat muted because you're seeing it through paper. Where with Peer Flow, the reason we're putting the sticker on it is because the filter actually works. So during the course of smoking the joint, that filter is turning from white to yellow because it's taking so much of the smoke out of the draw. And so, in order to mask that yellowing effect, we've we've come up with this crutch sticker, which any company can put their brand on, and it's a high gloss sticker. So it's a really great way to you know share the story of your brand doing something different, differentiating the experience for the end user by actually protecting their lungs. Um, and then we have a new foil sticker as well, which is like a little bit extra, extra sauce for somebody who wants to do that that extra pizzazz.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:01

So Kyle, if I if I may step in here. Uh Kyle explains this also, like, you know, from a sales perspective. I mean, at the at the end of the day, you know, like this is uh uh a company, this is a product um that Kyle's really passionate about, and he's explaining it, you know, like uh from someone who hasn't smoked as many of these things as I have. Uh at this point, I've rolled uh well over 10,000 of them, and I've smoked easily 200 myself. And uh what what Kyle's um you know explaining, but you know, isn't detailing accurately is not much of the smoke actually passes through this membrane. It's incredibly dense. It's not like a cigarette filter, for example, where when you squeeze it, it's kind of squishy. It's a very compact, hard, um, solid, dense material. The smoke is um essentially, you know, the the heavy resins are being wicked out of the smoke as it passes through. And it's not really filtering it, but it's it's having like a surface contact effect on the smoke, which I also notice has uh holds a lot of fine ash and dusty particulate as it makes its way into the filter. And although the center is hollow, uh I have yet to experience a single uh piece of weed flowing through. So uh with the right with the right mill, uh it's been incredibly effective. And uh at the end of the day, it works. Um, it's I it creates quite a consistent experience um from a RD perspective.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:37

Well, Creed, I really appreciate you jumping in on that because you're right, you have smoked more pure flow than me. I only brought a box of 20 to Victoria um a while back, and lo and behold, I smoked them all, and the product's all in Vancouver, so I just went and got myself a hundred bucks of Kyle.

SPEAKER_06 1:48:55

Kyle, I'm very upset that that that I'm the only one who hasn't gotten to try these.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:00

Well, we we we only teed this up on Friday, Aaron. So I gotta send you something. And I gotta send you something. Guess what? You you don't need the hundred bucks, you need the eight hundred box because you're gonna be doing up some custom pods for us. I will. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Tell us about the tolerance on a hummingbird pod and why that's so important.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:21

Oh, so um, yeah, uh, so my machine uh uh it's called a hummingbird, and uh it basically it's one of the most versatile machines uh out there right now. Um most pre-roll machines here. Let me break this down real quick. Most pre-roll machines are either vibratory or like a sewing package. You know, uh it it's it's it's the knockbox or it's something bigger, and it is it's the same mechanical issues across the whole board, whether you go from the you know the knockbox or all the way up to the couple hundred thousand dollar machines. When we started making our machine, we were Worried about that same product. You know, we were working with the knockbox and we were looking at everything and no noticing that we didn't like it. So we ended up making our machine, the hummingbird, based off of centrifugal force. So we use a centrifuge to pack the cones. Because of that, you're gonna get an even pack from tip to tail. You're gonna be able to control that pack pack. It's actually, you know, uh, it's actually how can I put it? You're controlling the compaction that you want. You can turn it up more or less, depending on how you want it. It's a very simple machine. Um and it does everything. Everything cones, straights, uh, blunts, wood tips, uh, glass. We can do it all. And uh we're making something right now for or we're going to for Kyle. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:57

Um I've actually I've actually had quite a bit of hands-on experience uh with your hummingbird as well. Uh the unit that Kyle had. Uh he uh brought it by my lab and we did some RD with it. It was super fun to play with, man. I gotta say, it's a very unique rolling experience for sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:14

No, absolutely. And and you know, it gives you it gives you a lot of uh versatility. I mean, uh I I can't I really can't get into it enough. Every one of those pods that you see, and those pods are those little red um discs. You basically every time you want to switch a skew, there's no change parts. You're pulling that out, you're putting the next one inside. You're putting you want to do a king size, you're grabbing the blue. You want to do a dog walker, you're grabbing the yellow. You know, you want to do blunts, you're grabbing one of the other ones off the shelf.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:44

It allows how many how many joints could me and a homie spin up in one day, call it a 10-hour shift.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:50

Okay, look, let me put it like this. Uh and and this is one of the biggest things I I I get so excited, or not excited, but I get really heated about in the cannabis world. So many people want to say, hey, my machine runs for you know, the knockbox runs for two minutes, and it does a hundred. So theoretically, I should be able to do X amount over it, but it's not running for two minutes. You're filling it, you're taking it out, you're moving it around, right? You're doing all these things. It's actual workflow.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:23

It's about touch points. There's so many touch points with those.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:26

There's so many touch points. Yeah, my machine cuts that all down, right? The hummingbird cuts all of that away, and basically what you're gonna do is you're gonna do one person in an hour without breaking a sweat is gonna do between 1400 and a thousand. And that's one person doing every touch point.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:48

Now, and it's and it's small. This is a bad thing, and it's very small.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:51

It's the size, it's it's the size, it's the size of a uh microwave, it runs off a 120 volt. You can plug it into your kitchen, Aaron.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:58

Throw your microwave out and buy a hummingbird.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:01

Okay, well that's I mean, hey, I I I it it would it would uh it would serve a better purpose, yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:07

Anyhow, although I just quick quick side note, we used to smoke nuclear joints. There's this weird guy that came to Victoria and he's like, take your joint and put it in the microwave. And we would nuke the joint for 30 seconds before we smoked it. And man, he put on Pink Floyd the wall. I felt like I was on mushrooms off that thing. I just I never did it again because I don't have a microwave, I don't keep them around, but it's a placebo.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:35

Yeah, that's that sounds placebo to me too.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:38

Um, I was tripping.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:39

I'm I swear.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:41

Just dried, just dried it out, nuked all the turps and gave you radiated weed.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:45

Yeah, I was gonna say, did you I mean, did it decarb it and you ate some?

SPEAKER_05 1:53:49

Or like I can't I'm talking 30 years ago. I didn't mean to interrupt.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:53

I just go Oh no, I'm just not sure how that would work.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:55

Yeah, but anecdote. We love a good anecdote.

SPEAKER_06 1:53:58

I love it. But yeah, um it's 120 cones per cycle each bottom. 120 cones spins for a minute.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:06

It's only spins for a minute, you know, less like 22 seconds or 30 years.

SPEAKER_06 1:54:11

Well, so you set it for you set it for 15 seconds, and what it does is it ramps up to whatever speed you have set. So uh we usually start around 2,000 RPM and you turn that up or down based on the cannabis that you have. You know, sometimes uh sometimes you have a very sticky. Absolutely. Sometimes you have a very sticky cannabis, you don't want it to uh to compact too much, you know. You slow that down, you get a better airflow. Look, this what I tell this is what I tell everyone. Um if you can control the airflow, you can control a lot of different things. You can control the uh you can control the heat, right? Because as as you control the airflow, you're controlling how much it's burning and how fast. You know, you can give me the best cannabis on the planet, but if I burn it too hot, and the same thing with dabs, you burn too hot, you're ruining everything. You're not getting the taste that you should. Okay? Now you now cut back. If you're controlling that heat, you're controlling that taste, you're controlling everything. So what what we what we recommend with the hummingbird is you do a small batch of of simple four joints, right? To start off, you dial in your SOP, you get your you get your speed, you get your weights down, and then you're off to the races right after that.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:33

Yeah. It's a great machine. It's hands-on. It's like you're you're you're making the cone. You're not like dumping your weed in a bin and it goes around 18.

SPEAKER_06 1:55:45

No, and it's also it's it's lean. It's it's it's it's lean automation. Look, look, guys, uh we we've all looked at pre-roll machines, and they are hundreds of thousands of dollars, and they have uh all these bells and whistles. You need a compressor, you have to have these actuators, there's you know, uh all these different pieces that are moving on these machines.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:10

Don't get me started on a procy pack. But like they're so complicated. You're right.

SPEAKER_06 1:56:15

I'm telling them, and and and and here's what ends up happening you end up you end up having one piece go wrong, and all of a sudden the machine is down. Or what's even crazier, I've I actually had someone talk to me and and tell me that he was tired of uh being held hostage by his employees, meaning that he's got one guy who can run this machine, and if that guy doesn't show up, that machine doesn't run. What kind of operation is that? And no cannabis company right now, unless you're an MSO, unless you're something huge and you're able to pump out these things. Well, I mean, yeah, go go get a you know half a million dollar machine. But what kind of real uh you know, craft company right now is going to be able to afford you know $300,000 for a pre-roll, which is their arguably what their cheapest thing on the menu? What's your ROI? So because of this, we built our machine, you know, which is rival, which I would easily put uh uh uh machine to machine, I would put next to any other for out there right now for quality. I would run it uh quality to quality 100%. It's a zero loss system, it's not gonna bounce around like the knockbox, it's gonna give you everything that you put in, it's gonna get out. Guaranteed perfect crutch. I'm I'm I would put my machine next to anything else on the market right now.

SPEAKER_08 1:57:44

When you talk about it's also quiet, it's very quiet. That little part right before the filter where it could potentially yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 1:57:52

So here's the thing because it's a centrifuge, right? You're pushing everything into that cone. It's a zero loss system. Like I said, what you put in, you're gonna get out. It's highly accurate, but it's got nowhere else to go. It's physics. I mean, if you think about it, you guys, you if you've ever been on that ride, the Gravitron spinning around, it's pushing you up against a side uh uh side of the uh thing at the fair. I don't know if you guys ever been at that. We know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_11 1:58:19

You should show a video though, because all the words in the world will not explain your unit as much as like a 30-second video of it being used.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:26

Oh, I'm I I you know what I am not that savvy to be able to pop it up.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:32

Well, you could talk about hummingbird for another 60 seconds. I'll find a video. There you go, Kyle.

SPEAKER_06 1:58:38

You got it, you got his back. All all I'm saying, all I'm saying is look, it's physics. When you're spinning something that fast, and you're able to pull all of those particles at every one, either whether it's you know small or big, everything that's been broken up is being pulled at the exact same rate. It's basically being uh for a better uh uh lack lack of words, fluidized. All those particles are now moving almost like a fluid towards the back of that cone. They're filling in biomass filling in on biomass. You're not gonna have a crutch that that is weak, you're not gonna have a piece that runs. When things canoe and it and it folds in and it burns, that's because there's an open pocket of air where there's nothing to burn underneath, and so that and so it opens up that paper and runs along the side.

SPEAKER_08 1:59:28

But if it's like fluid, how does it not come through the hole?

SPEAKER_06 1:59:33

See, that's the thing. No, no, no, that that's the thing. As long as you get the compaction at the end, right, it's gonna fill in around itself almost as if like uh did you see did you see how the uh the thing the vortex action looked? It's filling in uh complete one side, one side, one side, all the way around. I have never had where if you go to the knockbox, you'll have Scooby Snacks all over the bottom all the time. Yeah, yeah. Anything vibratory, anything like that, you're gonna have Scooby Snacks. Because what's happening there is it's particle separation. Look at vibratory in any other in any other um, how can I put it? In any other industry, you you vibrate, it's particle separation. That's gold mining, you guys.

SPEAKER_08 2:00:26

I know I love the video, the guy he's cleaning the dirt off the floor of his car, and he puts the vibrator down so it all pops up, and then he hits it with the vacuum.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:36

Absolutely. I don't know if you know that video or not. You know, and then and yeah, and who wants to pack their weed that way? Yeah, all you're getting is separation and you're getting the granulation where it's going down through that hole. You're getting, you know, particles on the sides, you're getting it spilling out the edges, and you're getting particulated in the air.

SPEAKER_04 2:00:56

It's also organizing the particles by size and weight, which creates that compact lack of airflow. Like once the particle size is uniform, they interlock, and so the vibration has a tendency to do that.

SPEAKER_05 2:01:09

But there's another part of the machine, it's not just the hummingbird, there's something called the finisher. Oh, and you have you haven't seen the finisher creed, but basically, with the original hummingbird, you had to hand twist the joint, potentially trim it. Now they've got uh what's called the the finisher, which is a closing tool. So can everyone see the video I'm sharing of this?

SPEAKER_06 2:01:32

Yeah, this was just recently put out uh um in October of last year, and it Dutch crowns all your joints at the same time. Uh, they come out of the of out of the hummingbird, you split the pod in half, uh, put it into the machine. So you can do it all four pods. Yep. Uh so actually the the only difference, no, this is what you're seeing right now is a uh is the first prototype, actually. Um what we did was yes, it the first prototype did all four pods, and we are putting out an electric one probably within the next year or so, which will, but right now we put out a manual one, and what it does is just two. And the reason we did that was the pressure of having a manual one coming up and down. We just got worried that someone sooner or later might complain about the added strength of doing four. And we said, well, if like if we cut it in half, we'll never have any problems.

SPEAKER_05 2:02:32

Oh, so it's about the the the strength it takes to the yeah, this is a manual.

SPEAKER_06 2:02:36

So so uh this is single action automation. This is this is manual right here. It's never gonna go wrong, never do anything that it's not supposed to. You have no problems, and it just pushes it right out the bottom. I don't know, uh actually not sure where you have actually even found these videos. You're an online wizard. Um, but yeah, it just pushes them right out the bottom. Uh, and then maybe this is the continuation.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:06

No, I just want to say, Aaron, we need a finisher in Canada, you know, like Creed can be able to see it. Creed's considering hummingbird, but he's like, Man, I can't twist all these things closed, you know. So we need to have a demo unit up here of the finisher so that people can see the full solution.

SPEAKER_06 2:03:23

No, I I I feel great about that. Uh, the the issue that I'm having, to tell you the truth, is we're having these produced right down the street from us in Oakland, California. Uh, and they are a hot ticket, man. Um, we're putting them together and they're going out the door. So, yeah, I will definitely I have one earmarked for you, but uh we're we like I said, we just debuted it, and there's really nothing else on the market that's doing anything this well. There's something from King Cone, which I really do like. It's very similar, but um if you were to see the difference in I have one of those. Okay. If you were to I'm not trying to say anything, I'm just uh I would probably say more like um the speed and r uh reliability waivers, but the difference is in the price. If you look at uh if you look at the King Cone price, it's you know, it's very much in the early stage value range. It's a that's a bunch of it's it's it's very much you know the ear the early stages of where a company maybe would start out, but if you want to get into real production, you know, you want to get into rivaling some of these companies that you're competing with that have these half a million dollar machines, that's what we set up the plan for.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:42

Aaron, I've got one more question for you for Hummingbird. Sure. Canada, we're we're federally regulated, and so that there's a rule book, you know, you can stand on it, you get taller. There's so many rules about cannabis, and one of them is the average weight of each joint has to be within a specific tolerance of evenness. So just wanted to ask you about the weight consistency on the production of hummingbird.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:11

How I was wondering, yeah, I was wondering that too, because for our production, that was definitely like a very time-consuming topic because you know we had to stay within the standards, and like there's a lot of ideas that would cut down on like time and whatever, but there was always that they need to be within range. So I was also wondering that. So thank you for asking, Kyle. Because I was very curious about that.

SPEAKER_11 2:05:42

Uh yeah, the screen. This sorry, the screen is just your screen if you want to stop sharing and then it can go back to the panel. Sorry, but I was trying to show the weight, the weight of the uh I don't mind you showing anything, just sometimes when it turns into a screen that says link to Windows is off, uh, try again. I just I was like, oh, let's get rid of that until you figure it out, and then you can reshare as many times as you want. Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 2:06:05

Yeah, no, um, so as for weights, it's a highly, highly accurate system. Um, unlike unlike you know, things that are vibratory and things that are, you know, the if you look at a lot of other machines, there is waste just built in. You're gonna have waste in most operations. You know, there's a lot of things that are put in particulate in the air. Um this is what you put in is what you get out. It's like I said, it's physics, guys. If you put it in the if you put it the the cannabis in that pod, it's gonna go down inside that cone. It has nowhere else to go. I mean, this is I mean, if you watch this here, it's just dead on to dead on to dead on throughout that whole pile.

SPEAKER_05 2:06:47

Um these are infused joints in this video.

SPEAKER_06 2:06:50

Yep. The uh these are one point five, these are full gram joints that are uh uh infused, and then so uh they're probably like one point two or three, but uh they're showing the crutch there too. And that's coming straight out of the hummingbird. Yep, that's coming straight out of the hummingbird and twisted. Wow, nice one there.

SPEAKER_09 2:07:10

So that's hand twisted out of the hummingbird, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:07:13

Yeah, that was that was out of those were hand twisted right out of the hummingbird. Yeah, uh that video was taken before we had done the closer, but same same thing. Right out of the hummingbird, they come. Um, there might even be another uh video somewhere out there, I'm not sure where you're finding them, but called uh uh packed. But when they come out of the hummingbird, they're perfectly packed. I actually will take a joint right out of the hummingbird in front of it. This is my favorite thing to do when I do a demo at a at a trade show, is take them out of the hummingbird and take that joint right as it comes out, and I tip it upside down and I shake it, and nothing pack falls out because it's completely packed perfectly. You know, it's not and it and it's like it's like the dairy queen flip.

SPEAKER_03 2:07:55

That's the blizzard flip.

SPEAKER_06 2:07:57

Yep, exactly. The blizzard, yeah, exactly. And then uh I would I'll do that, um, and then I'll even hand it to someone or or give them even the next one out and say, now check the airflow, and they'll pull it up to their lips and they'll check the airflow. And at some of these cannabis shows where I can give them uh the the product, sometimes I'll use uh CBD hemp because that's the type of show we're at. But if it's a live cannabis show, that is my other favorite thing to do, is go say, now go smoke it and tell me it's not gonna be one of the perfectly packed pre-rolls.

SPEAKER_05 2:08:32

Well, the beautiful thing is, Aaron, once we get these custom pods figured out for these peer flow filters, because they are about a half a millimeter wider than a standard cardboard filter to fit in the membrane. So we I need to customize those pods with you. Then next time you go to the trade show, you'd be like, check the peer flow. I would love it. Rather than check the airflow, check the peer flow. Yeah, I'd love that. Now you smoke it.

SPEAKER_04 2:08:57

Kyle, you don't remember? We put a whole bunch of the peer flows in the in the hummingbirds.

SPEAKER_05 2:09:02

What do you mean I don't remember? That was three months ago.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:04

Yeah, yeah, no, but we we ran hundreds of those peer flows through that hummingbird. Yeah, anyways. I found it to be challenging with heavily infused biomass. Uh, it was difficult, even at higher RPMs and longer spin speeds, but for every other thing, it was highly effective.

SPEAKER_05 2:09:22

I'm gonna put up my hand and say, Creed, I think that that mix you made that day was overly tacky. And I think since then you have refined your your homogenization techniques for formulation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_04 2:09:36

Don't you question my formulations, Kyle?

SPEAKER_06 2:09:39

Creed, if if I could, I I will I will to throw two things out there to you, right? Just because I I know my machine pretty well. Um uh I'm not saying to to to throw it in a blast chiller, but um maybe pre-freeze the material to get it a little colder, right? Yeah, that always makes it a little less tacky.

SPEAKER_08 2:09:59

Or will your machine work in a cold room? Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:04

Oh, yeah, for sure. Absolutely. You uh it's uh I've seen it in sub-zero uh temperatures. Um but uh what was I gonna say? Uh I actually have a new pod that I've been working on that does um different molds of glass tips, which I think that this pure flow would even fit better in. And what I'm using now is you've seen the the the pods that they're they're made of uh they're called PET G um PETG uh plastic, and that's that's food safe, you know. Um are they 3D printed?

SPEAKER_04 2:10:38

Are they 3D printed? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:10:39

Yep. And then now I've been uh doing something called TPU, which is a more spongy material, and that actually grips the glass on the bottom and fits into the bottom of that piece to hug the glass. So it's actually uh a newer piece of technology that we're coming out with, but it it will everything that you just said, the the the issues you guys were experiencing, even though you guys were coming around around it, even that touch point will be cleared up.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:08

Of course. Yeah, I mean a chilled room is is a huge benefit.

SPEAKER_02 2:11:12

A chilled room is like a necessity for uh the I don't think it even matter, like well it doesn't matter, but or infused material, my experience has never been an easy material to work with, like there is yeah, but I agree, chill temperatures chill temperatures and and and look once I say again, it's it's physics, you know.

SPEAKER_06 2:11:40

You can give me I I I tell people look, at the end of the day, if you under the right setup, you can give me Play-Doh and I'll put it into a cone for you.

SPEAKER_04 2:11:49

You know the the thing about infused material and uh your method of rolling is also that you know it's a metering tray uh that you know um portions out the cannabis for infused material. Material, it's way, way different. And so the metering trays are never really accurate. Uh, you know, a one gram is gonna put a 1.3 and a half gram is gonna put a 0.75. So it's uh very difficult to uh regulate the uh weights when you're incorporating infusion, I think.

SPEAKER_11 2:12:17

You know, a lot a lot of the folks that I've seen in chat today, you know, they're like oh machine this and oh, they're just selling mids. And it's like, listen, I I have these same problems in the hash world with my hash hits. Figuring out a way to create it as a product that has economic viability is how you get it out to the, I don't like to say the customer or the industry, I'm more like a community and the members of our community kind of guy. Um, it sounds a little less chatty too. Um, because it's both. Cannabis has always been both. We're an industry where we're absolutely selling to clients, but we're also a community with people who are members of said community, and so and it's even more complicated by the fact that we're in recreational, but we're also in um medical.

SPEAKER_04 2:13:05

Here, I'm just gonna hit a quick dab out of this brand new banger that uh Brian from D Mail just said also that's one of the biggest moral dilemmas when it comes to corporate cannabis. Uh, is there's always got to be some sacrifice, and it's usually uh, you know, monetary. Uh you have to sacrifice your personal ideology to create a commercializable product. And uh at the end of the day, like we're all heads, like we smoke fire, and uh you can't always bring a product to market that is like up to your absolute standards. It's just you know, uh, when you're playing with other people's money, uh they don't want you to act funny.

SPEAKER_11 2:13:42

If I'm gonna use OBP, it's the whole reason I started grades of hash, and in fact, it's kind of why in Colorado we're kind of talking about taking the star rating, which was created by my friends Corpy and Space, which was really about the melt factor, which confused a lot of consumers, and we're kind of bringing it back into the grade and quality of the hash. You know, a one-star hash could be like a uh a dry sifted product that's been pressed without any heat, it's just kind of a crumbly hash. You know, a two-star might be a brick hash that's actually a gummy, you know, a three-star might be a temple ball, four-star. Now you're getting into kind of bubbles, uh, like you know, half melt bubble is what I call a four-star. It's you know, it's bubbling, it's moving. Being able to educate people on this is uh fairly important. It's um it's not easy, as though it might not be as interesting as a conversation as some of the conversations we've had, but it's not easy to come up with this equipment and to come up with the uh the fixes for some of these things. Like for me, pre uh pure hash joints. How do I commercialize rolling those so I can get them out to you know the 4.3 million people that watched me smoke the first one on my YouTube channel and said, How do I get one of those? So it becomes this very difficult thing. Now combine that with we want to be able to work with what we love, which is cannabis. And we want to be able to pay the bills and send our kids to a good school and and maybe our wife to the spa and on a trip. Like we want to do all the things that everyone wants to do. We're just not doing it the same way as you know, getting hired as a job, working for a paycheck, you know, pioneering and and creating and inventing machines and equipment is really, really difficult. Like it is not an easy thing. And so you can imagine like Aaron probably has thousands of hours invested into his machine. You know what I mean? Like any of us, Colin, Kyle, myself, Robbie, Creed, we are, you know, we are all well invested in this to the point where, you know, the least you can do is rather than take the sort of negative of it is try to see the value. This is Hashchurch. We like to geek out on things. I have been completely ignorant of the joint smoking world because I haven't smoked joints. And so now that I am smoking joints, I thought, shit, this is a conversation we could have on hash church, you know, because before I wasn't a part of that conversation. I looked at pre-rolls uh as a thing much like uh the way a lot of the hash snobs, you know, oh, those are mids, those are just bunk, those are just garbage. And then, but I wasn't even a part of it. I was just criticizing something that I wasn't a part of. And in the meantime, it's literally like 70 plus percent of the market. So if you're in the cannabis market and you're saying trying to, you know, create a brand and not, you know, when you're creating a brand, it's not just a simple thing like, oh, I'm trying to make money. It's like, no, you're building like a monstrous team of a bunch of people, and all of those people are going to be getting paid, and they're all going to be a part of the making money of that entity. And in order to do that, you have to create an economic viability. And so obviously, pre-roll joints. I literally just released the first Bubble Man infused pre-roll joint down in Colorado. So this is, you know, my partner asked me months ago, he was like, Hey, would you ever want to do a pre-roll joint? And I was like, Well, I don't smoke joints, so it would be weird. That was like six or seven months ago, and then four or five months ago, I smoked my first joint. Uh, and then many more months went by, and he was kind of like, Hey, like, you're kind of smoking joints now. And I was like, Yeah, I know. And he's like, Well, do you want to do you want me to roll you up like you know, one of the pre-rolled infused joints, and you can smoke it and see if you like it? And I was like, I had never I had not smoked an infused pre-rolled joint. I mean, in a sense, ever. The last time I smoked uh bubble hash in a joint would have been around 99. Uh, and it would have been a snake because we just rolled snakes back then. I guess snakes aren't really a thing these days, huh? Unless you're making louder, they definitely are.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:07

Yeah, but it's called hash holes.

SPEAKER_11 2:18:10

But hash holes are rosin. Are people making hash holes with bubble with food?

SPEAKER_01 2:18:15

You can, yeah, you can do with bubble too, man. But but like you, Marcus, like I felt I haven't seen them on the market yet.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:21

Yeah, they're they're expensive to make they're hard to roll, they're very hard to roll.

SPEAKER_11 2:18:25

Well, just so few people can make full melt bubble. So let's just put that at the top of the roster. True.

SPEAKER_03 2:18:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:32

We're talking about a product that yields, you know, in the uh, you know, half a percent, you know, when you get to the fully cleaned heads, you know, we were talking one percent return.

SPEAKER_11 2:18:41

Or that's what you've seen. You know, possibly there are people who are able to grow weed on a different level. So when you process it, it's truly a five or a six percent. I I made full mount bubble at Breeder Steve's in 2002 or three. Um, I know that because both our daughters were born in 01 and they were babies, so it was around 2002 or 03, and I made bubble, it was Red Eye Magazine was there, Andre Grossman from High Tides, High Times Magazine, the epic old school photographer from High Times in the 80s and 90s, and probably a bunch of other super awesome people, but we made bubble from Breeder Steve's like sweet tooth tunnel growing in Lugano, so it was like an outdoor greenhouse type thing, and the 190, the 160, the 120, all the way to the 25 were like full mount. Like it was unbelievable. And I've seen it not as often as I would like to, but I do know that when it comes to water hash, I don't understand personally why more people don't use you know the bags as a method to describe or to understand whether your plants hit the mark when it comes to genetic expression that was what that was available and that it was capable of, meaning that it sequestered everything it needed, everywhere it needed it, every time it needed it, in the exact amount it needed it, and it expressed like an Olympic athlete at the end of its life cycle. You make hash with plants like that, uh, and it's just not the same as anything else. I think tissue culture is going to change a lot of that in the cannabis industry. I think a ton of cannabis is impregnated with viruses and bacterias and fungis from the vector that is cloning and how we've cloned for the last 30 plus years. Um, and I think that that's hard on growers trying to get plants that are really sick and dying to express themselves like athletes. And I think the more we understand all of these things, the more we can get to a place where people, you know, because what I've always seen with bubble is that it's like pointing you to this path, right? You get to the point where you you take your flower the first time and you wash it, and then it's pointing you in this path of learning why did my hash not melt. That's the most often question I ever got. In fact, it was always framed like this how do I get my hash to melt like yours? And I would say, ooh, listen, like that is a long journey. You're gonna have to learn about the growing of cannabis, the the the actual proper breeding and and genetics of cannabis and the and the genetics that you're looking for are gonna begin everything, and then being able to learn about microrhhizospheres and the symbiotic relationships of fungi and all of these other complex things. I'm like, whoo, where do you think they're gonna go before they go there?

SPEAKER_04 2:21:45

In 99 harvest window, the the the window for harvest is so important to dude, all of it, and then where do people go when they don't want to really face all of that?

SPEAKER_11 2:21:55

They go to I'll just blast it, which over time turned into I can make rosin out of it, right?

SPEAKER_04 2:22:03

And so um I think the number number one way uh to remediate a crop failure, essentially. You know, it's like that's what I'm seeing more and more is these LPs are looking for contracted extractors because they had to pull a room down in week six because they had something terrible happen and they're just like fuck, we need any way to recuperate this fucking massive loss. So I think that's the origin of extracting, like it in its essence, to be honest.

SPEAKER_11 2:22:30

Well, because they took the right instead of the left. Like, if you take the left and you go down the pathway that is, I'm not gonna stop till I get to full melt bubble, it doesn't mean you have to stay in full melt bubble. Once you've learned that lesson, you can take that to I'm gonna be a pre-roll joint guy, I'm gonna be a butane extractor, I'm gonna be a whatever, whatever it happens to be in cannabis, be the highest expression that it can be. Don't be content down here and understand that taking that pathway, the left pathway that teaches you all about these complex things, having, you know, if you're an extractor, for instance, you should have an influence on the people who are growing your material. Unless they're doing it to perfection, you should be able to sit down with them and say, Hey, listen, I've do you know about this? Do you know about this? I'm gonna not try to undermine you in any way, but I really would like us both to be the most successful. And all I'm doing is unveiling what you're doing. And what I'm unveiling says you're not doing it very well. You know, that's a hard discussion to have to have.

SPEAKER_04 2:23:34

The relationship between the growers and the processors needs to be symbiotic, like they need to be so aware of what's happening on both ends if you want the expected outcome. And if you're not in the gardens yourself as an extractor and like monitoring the health and the growth cycles, then I think you're doing yourself a disservice for sure.

SPEAKER_06 2:23:55

Well, I I I agree, I agree with you, Creed. Um, but I also I also want to throw out there that there's a lot of like um big white labeling plants uh out there that basically will uh you know, big big white labeling companies that basically are willing to say, hey, you give me garbage, I'll give you garbage back, you know? And they're just pumping it out and pumping it out. And it's and I mean it's I mean it yeah. I mean I think for it somewhere, but uh you can I mean especially with with with uh dabs are not my thing to tell you the truth, okay. I I mean I I d I dabble, yeah, yeah, right. I dabble into dabs, but um, but I I mostly smoke plants and flour. But uh but to tell you the truth, man, it does a disservice to this to the art form to to pump it full of just garbage out there, man. You can easily tell uh something done right and something done wrong.

SPEAKER_04 2:24:55

Yeah, I'll tell an I'll tell an LP that their material is just not worth extracting. I'll tell them to go make distill it. I'm just like, yeah, I'm not putting that through my equipment. It's especially yield. Yield is a huge factor. Like if it's a low-yielding material, it's so much more work on my end to process that much of uh biomass. So it's just realistically, it's uh yeah, it's a cost-benefit analysis, and you gotta be honest with the cultivator whether material's garbage.

SPEAKER_01 2:25:23

Yeah, I mean, Aaron, I I'm constantly out there in the field, like basically interviewing possible air quotes partners, as I call it. Because like I go to their grow and I'm like, okay, well, show me, you know, show me why we can we should be partners, you know, kind of thing. Because it's it's very rare that I can find a good partner. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_06 2:25:45

I I completely understand that, you know.

SPEAKER_11 2:25:48

Yeah, that's why you gotta act like the dude from the open table Netflix documentary on pizza. There's the Italian dude, and he would go visit his tomato farmer and it's Mossarello Maker and his basil farmer, and he had this super intense relationship. He was out in the dirt on his knees, the basil was in his face, he was rubbing the tomatoes. Like, believe it or not, you don't have to be the guy that does everything. You can just create incredible relationships. Someone asked me, you know, like, you know, they this uh James in the chat mentioned that yeah, it should be processor and grower in the same in the same spot. And I replied with, I process more than they can grow. So instead, what I do is I find people who have taken that left path when they when their hash didn't melt. I like to choose the people that have taken the left path. And all of them have different paths, it's not the same, it's just the direction and how you get there. Uh, it is decided by many factors of which I could not fathom, but I appreciate the people who take that journey and who are willing to take that journey because once they learn it, it literally translates, it's kind of like understanding full melt bubble, 73 micron, full melt bubble. The first time you hit that, you're like, I get it now. And then now when someone says, I want a 73 micron meal, I want a 73 micron trip, I want a 73 micron life, I want a 73 micron partner, and you're like, Yeah, I get it, I get what you're saying. And whether they're on the solventless path, whether they're on the solvent path, to me, it really doesn't matter. As long as you're willing to bend the knee to the plant, to listen to the plant in any way, shape, or form that she uh so decides to show you or tell you on how to get her where you're trying to get her to. That's the mission. And this whole like, I will not bend the knee, I will grow mids and and make distillate, and I will it's like, holy shit. Okay, and and in their defense of all of that, those people aren't just doing that because it's easy and shitty, they're doing it because the most amount of people want that and have always wanted that, whether we like it or not. Very true. So, what I would like the people who are watching and listening is that when you see pre-roll machines and the discussion of pre-rolls, it doesn't always have to be about mints. There's going to be a top-tier world of pre-roll joints. Yeah, but people don't think that, dude. They assume, oh, it's pre-rolls, it's it's I used to do this myself, but there is a difference. Go buy a bunch of pre-rolls in the market, go buy a bunch of different ones and smoke them and see if you think they're all the same.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:47

I think Marcus is what Marcus is saying is super real because you in every segment has this, whether it's flour, rosin, hash, it doesn't matter what it is. There's levels to every skew and every every aspect of it. I mean, there is an art form. I studied making a joint for 24 months. It was like a project I was assigned to. It's extremely complex from the grind diameter all the way to the airflow to the varietal type you're selecting to how it was grown. Um I mean, I could go on. You're you're essentially engineering this this product, you know?

SPEAKER_04 2:29:22

It has to be designed.

SPEAKER_01 2:29:24

100%. It's just because we came from a I come from a world just like where you know it's just the traditional way you just roll, you just roll it up, man. That's it. You know what I mean? We never thought about like if it boated, it boated. I don't know, man. Like that was that was on me. Like I rolled it, right? But now it's a different now. I have to hear about it from someone else that I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 2:29:48

It used to be like a chaos factor, you know. Like it used to be used to think we had like uh no ability to regulate or manage the experience. And I, you know, I love that about cannabis. I mean, it's an organic input that is so incredibly diverse that it's like I said, the ignorance of man to think that you can control this incredibly organic experience. However, you know, with obviously the technology that's available to us and the spaces we have and the resources that are available, um, it's the only way to make a viable product on a commercial scale. Um, you can't just be always at the will of the plant. But to speak to uh what Marcus was saying about the pizza guy being actively involved in all of his uh ingredient suppliers, it's definitely uh you know a necessity for the passionate or obsessive uh material processor to uh yeah, be so focused on the input material. It's fire in, fire out at the end of the day. Uh, if you want to make garbage, um obviously there's a space for that, but uh you know it's not what we're doing.

SPEAKER_11 2:30:51

The biggest space, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:30:54

Unfortunately, the biggest portion of the market.

SPEAKER_05 2:30:56

Yeah, because people don't know any better, right? And that that the more good product we put in the market, like all weed sells. I I learned that at a young age. Doesn't matter what it is, whether it's garbage, bunk, it's gonna find quite some of it sells slower than others, but it all sells eventually. So the thing is, is like every time we collectively put a better product in the market, we're giving someone else the opportunity to see something better. Because if you don't know any better, you're just gonna buy whatever, right? And that's that that's part of the market penetration of quality product, I think.

SPEAKER_04 2:31:34

I mean, I agree. Oh, no, go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 2:31:38

Oh, I was just gonna say, I was just gonna say, like, I I I I go with the cheeseburger analogy. Uh, I don't know if you guys have heard that one, but uh pre-rolls are like cheeseburgers, okay? Look, if if you want, if you're hungry, you can go find a three-dollar cheeseburger, and it's gonna do exactly what it's supposed to do. It's gonna it's gonna take away that little bit of hunger that you got, but you're spending three dollars. But at the same at the same rate, you can go to uh uh and get a Wagyu burger for $80 at a at a five-star restaurant and be completely happy with spending that money, you know, because you're satisfied in a completely different way. There are levels to this market with the pre-rolls, it's just where do you want to be and how to capitalize on that spot and how to be the best at what you can be at that spot.

SPEAKER_11 2:32:29

Are you saying my pre-roll is not vegetarian? Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_06 2:32:36

You know what? If you have a gluten-free, you have a gluten-free vegetarian uh pre-roll right now in the right markets, it's gonna sell hot.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:44

It'll sell.

SPEAKER_06 2:32:47

No, I'm just saying, but look, there's there's there's a place for everything. Um just it's it's all about being the best you can in that spot, I guess. So uh yeah, I I just wouldn't count anyone out. I know I know plenty of places that are uh vertically integrated and taking, I mean, look, guys, everybody every one of us hate it, but they're taking their garbage and they're turning it into pre-rolls, and they're vertically integrated. So they're they'll be a uh they'll be their own dispensary and they're offering one dollar pre-rolls at the counter. What why would you not grab one with your you have I have a two I have two dollars in change? Give me two of those, and it's them getting away, getting that their waste. They're people are always gonna figure out how to make money on their on on something, right? If they have it. And the the pre-roll market is big enough to where they're they can grab the bottom branch if they want, or they can reach up to the top of the tree if they want.

SPEAKER_04 2:33:48

Let's be honest though, uh cannabis is expensive, and I think we kind of it's somewhat of uh it's so available to us, uh, we're somewhat desensitized to the economic. Economy and like how it affects people. And I think there's a huge market for value products still, not because they're not good, but because you know it's a necessity, it's a necessity, and people need access to cannabis for so many different reasons. And as much as you know, like we probably wouldn't smoke that one dollar pre-roll, I think it's so important for that to be available uh to some people as well. And it doesn't, I don't think it truly detracts um from you know like the cannabis culture, but uh you're right, yeah, it's not something we would be interested in. But I think there's a place for everything. Yeah, there's a place for everything. All weed sells, like like constant.

SPEAKER_11 2:34:36

Like like pizza. Think of how much bad pizza is out there selling. You're you're just like, how are we gonna get rid of all this bad pizza? They're like, we need to open up next to a bar that's open six days a week, and at 2 a.m., people will come out and they'll buy all the pizza. But this pizza's seven days old, it doesn't matter. They're gonna buy it all. But what if they get sick? It doesn't matter, they're getting sick anyway. They're all they're gonna be throwing up this pizza, whether it makes them sick or their alcoholism makes them sick. It's still playing out the exact same way. What a metaphor. Who would have thought it? It's the human uh condition, I guess. That's the that's the reality of it. We learned this many years ago on Hash Church that we're a little utopian in our perspectives and views when it comes to cannabis, but your words are correct, Creed. Uh, that um it it is a cost thing. It is uh, you know, the economy and where it's at and where people are at and how little extra money they seem to have these days. Um thank God a lot less money is being put into alcohol. So it's not like they're making extra money. What they're doing is they're taking their booze money and being like, oh shit, I think this booze is giving me anxiety. Let's try a little cannabis, you know. And if if they get into it the right way, which once again isn't by hitting some 90 micron full melt rip out of a mother ship, that is not how you get turned on to cannabis for the first time. You you know, you smoke a little couple of two ways.

SPEAKER_04 2:36:06

I will admit, Marcus. Uh, but my first experience with like clear dome full melt was definitely with you at the old CC lounge, and you definitely had some crazy heady. And I was like, damn, what a fucking wild way to experience this. So I did come in at a at a you know a non-entry level, you know, position. And I was like, damn, what a wild honor it was to be to already be a fan of you and experience your products at that time, but then like also through some crazy custom heady that you had. I don't even remember it.

SPEAKER_10 2:36:37

Was it dark and blue and purple-ish?

SPEAKER_04 2:36:39

I think it might have been a marble slinger or something like an old marble slinger collab. I don't know.

SPEAKER_11 2:36:45

I think it's in a box, like right there. I swear to God.

SPEAKER_04 2:36:48

On a tie nail with the titanium screen over top, and it would just melt right through. And then, yeah, anyways, good times. Good times. Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_11 2:36:55

That's what's up. Yeah, I definitely did that for a lot of people. But aside from the fact, I mean really the larger group, not the tiny group of people that I turned on uh individually, that it's rare, you know, maybe it'd become less rare. I don't know, but I think nowadays, I mean, my own daughter who works at a dispensary, you would not believe the samples she ends up getting, just massive samples. She's like basically everyone's plug, just giving everyone free joints and uh buttenders get a lot of goodie bags, man.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:27

It's like trick-or-treat every day for them.

SPEAKER_05 2:37:29

But to be honest with you, that's how much of that stuff is fire, though. Like, is that just people like trying to get their mids off the books? Like, oh, let's give it away. Maybe somebody will buy it. It's really nice.

SPEAKER_04 2:37:39

The bud tenders are the front line, like the bud tenders are the ones that will make or break your brand, you know? They are the leaders. They're buying their allegiance. Yeah, they they are they are the first ones people ask for a recommendation.

SPEAKER_11 2:37:50

Well, it's it's not even that you're buying their allegiance, it's that how could they possibly suggest your product if they've never tried it? And how could we expect them to pay their own money to buy all those products that are in their stores, which could be like you know, like 300 grand worth of retail product or whatever?

SPEAKER_04 2:38:10

So you gotta stand out, you gotta have something that separates yourself on the market. Yeah, you definitely gotta.

SPEAKER_06 2:38:15

I remember I I had a uh I had a short-lived um license in Oakland, California. Uh, it was an equity brand, right? So I was able to I was able to build my my my company for relatively uh small amount of money, but uh when it really came about and I had to start giving out samples and goodie bags, I was like, oh my god, this is also costing money. Oh yeah. It was it's rough. The marketing look, the marketing and being a cannabis company, and uh not just with like things that like like the goodie bags, but just like the have having to put yourself out there and go to these dispensaries and build your product, man. I get my hats off to you guys. My hats are off to you guys because it's a lot of work.

SPEAKER_11 2:39:04

Well, you got to get a proper sales team. You got you know, there's a group of people that you got boots on the ground all the time.

SPEAKER_04 2:39:12

Exactly.

SPEAKER_11 2:39:13

Yeah, well, because you have to be friends, you have to know all these people, you have to why would they why should they suggest your product, right? Like it has to be because they like it. There's no other like you're not you can't just pay them to like your product, like samples aren't gonna do it for sure. Then, oh yeah, I'll tell everyone, you know, now that you've given me a sample along with 500 other companies. So they really generally tell people the ones they like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:39:38

And big shout out to to all the butt tenders all across every single market everywhere.

SPEAKER_11 2:39:43

Because you know, like see Vessel Life Science, how smart he is. You see that?

SPEAKER_01 2:39:47

Not even like that. I'm joking, dude. It's what what it is like though is that I cover with stuff for you. But but here's the thing I that fee that's the feedback I get. And when they go to a new store and become the buyer, like I had the experience two weeks ago. This girl tried our Sherbanger at a store in Brooklyn. She called me the moment she was the buyer for another store, and she kind of kept went up and she was like, I really wanted to carry you guys because you were the best herb that I'd smoked. And that's that's what it's about, man. You know, and that's that's the kind of stuff that's the type of relationships that you can build organically through product that you've given to people that you've actually put the care and time to put into. Like, I'm sure it happens to your brand markets all the time in Colorado, where they're like, just take the jar, and they literally take it, they they use it, and then they're like, Y'all take like four, you know, a case of each to start, or two cases of each to start. And that's the relationship. It's built off of them genuinely liking the material. You know, that's it's different than them buying off a menu, which also happens. Like most of these people are also there's the flip side of it where they literally get a menu every Monday and they're like, that's in a price point range I need, and the tack makes sense, and that's how I'm that's unfortunately what happens, man. So we're you know, like we're also an anomaly when you bring the quality, um, because those other brands that we're talking about that are selling this like junky material, um they're not able to do that. Like the the seriously, they're just not, they're not able to bring a jar full of great flour and have the bud tender on their own go to another store and carry it.

SPEAKER_07 2:41:35

Well, to to your just just to add to that, and hi, I'm back, guys. Um Welcome back.

SPEAKER_05 2:41:41

How'd it go at the uh party crashing?

SPEAKER_07 2:41:44

Uh it was great. There were you know a lot of uhs and you know all sorts of every everybody great. You brought the bouquet? I brought the bouquet, and you're back. That's uh did what I needed to do. But I but I was listening uh to the podcast all the way through, so I'm not uh I was listening to you guys chat the whole time, just so you know. Uh except when I was there. That would have been easier. But um, but uh you know it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 2:42:11

You're talking listening.

SPEAKER_07 2:42:13

Well, you know, you guys are talking about uh uh sample, you know, samples, and how do you, you know, how do you build that that that trust with the consumer and that value proposition and and and and have them understand the value proposition? And Colin, I agree, you know, I agree with you and with Marcus. Like on the one hand, it's it's it's not economical to just give joints away and these bud tenders are being inundated with samples. But the flip side is, you know, when when they do get something special, you know, when they do get something that they understand and they can they they they can you know really get behind, that they are gonna push it. And, you know, the the interesting part about this is just to bring this back to the conversation about pre-rolls and what I was saying before, you know, what's the economical way to let someone try what's in your garden, other than give them a pre-roll and have that pre-roll match the quality of what's coming out of the garden, right? That's how you go, you know, you're gonna hear me talk a lot about quality and manufacturing, consistency and manufacturing and consistency and experience for the end user. The the reality, as you guys have have put so eloquently, is that you know, us, the heady folks in the space, we represent probably one to three percent of the market. And unfortunately, we are it's been it's been a real uphill battle trying to educate uh consumers as to what makes good weed good. Right. And and and that's why I said before, you still get these questions about the highest tech, the highest uh uh uh potency, the lowest price, all these things, because they don't understand. So when a bud tender can get an experience with with a cultivar or or or a brand or a product that they can really get behind, that becomes that becomes the basis for how you start to build that, you know, build that marketing in the space. Now, again, you go back to how do you do that economically? And I think um pre-rolls, which were always that giveaway to get people sort of that hook to get you to buy the zip, um, you know, the more things change, the more they stay the same, right? It's just now, now we just need to match that, once again, match that quality of product with the quality of manufacturing. So because you know, there's nothing worse than getting quads in a joint that you have to that you have to fix, right? Or uh uh you you get really tasty weed, but you can only smoke half of it because it clogged, right? Because because the because the weed didn't was put in the wrong cone with too narrow a taper, and now you you've greased yourself out and and and there's nothing, you know, you it's not smokable, turns into a puck. So, you know, you can go through all of this effort of of putting together really, really good uh cultivars, really, really good genetics, and match that with really strong cultivation methodology. But if you put it into a pre-roll cone that doesn't let it shine, then you've lost the customer. Having, unfortunately, we're still at the stage where having the weed is only half the battle. That delivery mechanism is is is equally important, right? Because just as well, you could have weed that you you put really good weed in a cone that doesn't smoke against um weed that's maybe mids in a cone that smokes perfectly, and you give that to the average consumer, there they there is a reasonable likelihood that they're gonna go buy the product that didn't fuck up on them, that didn't cost them double because they had to buy two just to get through one joint.

SPEAKER_01 2:46:02

Yeah, right. I mean the the the experiential side of it and the the product dev side of it, right? And it sounds like the cones and the they call it the the the pre-roll system you guys have, you know, mitigates all that stuff, and that's the the biggest problem that I've seen is finding uh a good cone provider that that checks all those boxes. Is there any idea that you guys call me later? Yeah. Well no, I I think we should chat because there's definitely things that yeah, uh I got your message by the way, so thanks for that. Um but yeah, the the thing I I have a question about is is you know, I think about glass tips, ceramic tips. Um you know, how is this how is this different than those? You know, just so I can better understand and maybe perhaps the listeners who are you talking about pure flow? Like what yeah, the pure flow on specifically.

SPEAKER_05 2:46:57

Let me kick down first, Creed, and then I'll give it to you.

SPEAKER_04 2:46:59

Yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_05 2:47:00

My understanding is that people spend somewhere between a quarter and up to three quarters for a glass or ceramic tip, and I'm talking average price point in Canadian dollars is somewhere in the 25 cent to 75 cent range, depending on the quality, size, weight, whatever of the glass ceramic thing. So when you're buying that, you're getting a different mouthfeel, you're getting a different draw experience, but unless it's got some kind of charcoal in it, generally speaking, those things have no filtration. So we're out here selling Pureflow for less than 20 cents, Canadian. So the key is it's less expensive than the alternative, but there's an actual benefit that there's a harm reduction thing that's happening by delivering a cleaner emission for people to inhale into their lungs. That's my take on it. Go for Creed.

SPEAKER_04 2:48:01

Uh yeah, I mean, making some bold claims there for sure. Um uh when it comes to glass and ceramic tips, tons of difficulty when it comes to large-scale commercialization. One of them I can think of just off rip is the weight. They're very expensive when it comes to shipping. Uh, and when it comes to rolling, depending on the type of process that you're using, you have a lot of deficiencies. Uh, they're very heavy and papers are very delicate and they tend to bend and break and deform when you start handling them out of their stack or box or however they're prepared. Um, aside from that, they don't have an actual function.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:39

Even after that, like trying to get a glass tip uh blunt, whatever, to the store, like you still have to be extra cautious with the packaging, you know, packing peanuts. So you don't want to put all this effort and money and work into this glass tip product for it to just get be broken by the time they open it and yeah, or thrown on the ground and broken when it comes to biodegradability.

SPEAKER_04 2:49:06

Glass tips, in my opinion, are a hazard. People tend to obviously throw away their roaches, and the amount of times that I've seen people smoke a glass tip joint and just be like poop and just throw it on the ground, um, it's like painfully irresponsible when I see that. Um, but there's uh, you know, so many factors. Basically, my deciding factor to commercialize the peer flow was the fact that it has an actual function, like uh some sort of effect, other than just allowing the smoke to pass through it. And uh, you know, it could be called a gimmick or you know, whatever. The fact is it's something new, it's um something that's kind of pushing filter design. And uh I'm excited to kind of just have the opportunity to commercialize, you know, first of its kind products in Canada. Um, and uh that's you know what I look for as a product designer.

SPEAKER_07 2:49:54

Um what what's really what's really cool about that peer flow is that um, you know, now now this is maybe a little bit different for the knockbox users, but for folks who are using automation and just for context, um I said that we do four to five million pre-rolls a month. That is a fact. We also do not use any automation or any vibration.

SPEAKER_04 2:50:17

So that's crazy.

SPEAKER_07 2:50:19

Um that that and that is like I said, I welcome you to our facility. It's uh Mikasa Sukasa. But um, but what's really neat about uh about that product is the shape of the filter has not tried to be something that it wasn't or try to change the name of the game, right? That filter is following the same standard product design that uh we're already seeing in markets. So as far as commercializing it goes, it becomes a whole lot easier than say one of these, you know, as an example, like you know, the bullet filters or those those those tube filters or or whatever, um which for for a lot of folks are gonna require additional tooling. And when you're talking about the margin profile that commercial manufacturers have to deal with when you're talking about selling them for what we sell them for, um the value proposition on launching a new format typically comes with um with with uh tooling costs and and and and changing processes or whatever it is. And uh, you know, you need the volume to justify the investment. Whereas with this product, it's quite interesting because you know this is gonna fit into whether it's you know, if you got if if if anybody who's watching or anybody who's interested runs automations like pre-rollers or the hummingbird or the you know, or or the wanna roll or the the the roll pro or whatever that or all the way through to the knockbox.

SPEAKER_05 2:51:53

Hephaestus.

SPEAKER_07 2:51:54

It's it or the hefestus, yes, it's it's gonna it's gonna work, right? It's gonna work with all of these different um systems that are already there. It would probably work with the way that we uh make joints as well. And you know, we're we're gonna uh definitely do some samples, do some trials, and uh we're excited to see how that goes.

SPEAKER_05 2:52:14

Did you uh did you end up um in having another one before you got back here?

SPEAKER_07 2:52:19

Oh um I had one uh to say yes.

SPEAKER_05 2:52:26

That's a short answer.

SPEAKER_07 2:52:28

Uh yes, yes, I did.

SPEAKER_05 2:52:29

The situation here with this peer flow is that it's available and the team is trained to create them. So uh again, we are launching the product out in Toronto at Grow Up Conference.

SPEAKER_10 2:52:44

Are you gonna be giving joints away?

SPEAKER_05 2:52:46

Well, that's up to Creed.

unknown 2:52:48

Interesting.

SPEAKER_05 2:52:49

But he he stepped out for a second.

SPEAKER_11 2:52:52

You can in Canada, like you could give joints away, right? That's equal just change.

SPEAKER_04 2:52:56

I'll be giving I'll be giving a shit ton of joints away.

SPEAKER_03 2:52:59

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:53:00

I I'm a non I'm a non-plant touching business, so I can't I can't be giving any joints away.

SPEAKER_07 2:53:05

Well, it is then right now. It's it's it's actually a lot easier for for you than it is for a cannabis brand because you can just make them yourself and and and you're there to talk about the delivery method, whereas a cannabis brand who's advertising their product has to collect you know, has to give out excised uh units, keep the receipts, report it to Health Canada. It's it's it's not like can you give one to one?

SPEAKER_06 2:53:31

You can just give I'm gonna be able to do it. We're still allowed to share medicine with our fellow brands, as long as there's no profit.

SPEAKER_05 2:53:38

There's no profit involved. So it's actually easier to give weed away than it is to sell it. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 2:53:45

It's actually it's actually very difficult to give it away. Yeah, I it's exactly uh he's talking about the home user, I think.

SPEAKER_07 2:53:52

No, I'm I'm talking about to do like I'm talking about to give samples away as a brand, as a legal company in Canada, is has become very challenging. Uh Health Canada has has really raised the standard for what, you know. I mean, listen, it it used to be as simple as showing up at these shows with a bag of joints and handing them out. And uh, you know, then it turned into it had to be fully packaged product, then that was not economical, right? With with excise and all of that, then you need to, you know, then you needed to, you couldn't even pull out your own product, you needed to go buy it from a store and have the receipt so you could then show to Health Canada that this was compliant. But like there, there were so many different challenges. So what what I was saying is that as a paper company, as a as a uh delivery method, and and uh disclaimer, I'm not a lawyer. So thanks for pointing that out. You know, you use this information to your own, you know, according. But um but there there's you know for for me as an individual who has a bag of weed or a bag of joints or whatever it is to share them with my friends, uh there's there's no real uh prohibition. It's like giving someone a beer. You're not gonna, I'm not selling it to you, I'm not advertising it to you. And what's in it is is not in this case, and in your case, Kyle, is not about the weed that's inside. It's about the delivery met uh method, and that's what you're there to talk about. So you put your own homegrown or purchased weed or whatever it is into these joints. You make them however you make them. You can give them away, as far as I understand. You you know, that's there's there's nothing that's not compliant about that because you're not a cannabis brand advertising cannabis products to consumers.

SPEAKER_05 2:55:40

This is something I I would really like to touch upon, Adam, is that the the fact of the matter is is everyone knows smoking a joint is subjective, and and the weed, the strain, the feeling, the the entourage, whatever you call it, is different. It's subjective for every single person. So I believe. Creed mentioned there will be some uh rolled joints at the show. Um you know, but um I'm I'm planning to roll a couple myself. That's it's that easy, right? So if you come by booth 407 at Groa, what we've done at FTLD is we've created a sample tube and there's six joints in it, and we call it the sidewalk test tube. And so it's a sidewalk test tube. Inside that tube are four pure flow joints and two regular joints empty, and this is for us to give to the public because a lot of the public carry their own weed and then they can roll their own joint. But the sidewalk test, we want people to pack the same weed into the pure flow filter joint and then the regular joint, and then do the sidewalk test. Because when you smoke a regular joint next to a pure flow joint at the same time, that's when you really notice the difference and you get these kind of aha moments. And so please come by booth 407. There will be empty joints available because it's just paper and filter.

SPEAKER_08 2:57:09

So on your request, Kyle, I just completed my sidewalk test of a side-by-side comparison where all other components of the joint were the same, right? I used the same material, ground the same. I I rolled, you know, packed them the same, I did it at the same time. And, you know, before I even smoked it, the first thing that I did notice is what uh Creed had mentioned that the the filter itself is surprisingly rigid, you know, compared to the cardboard uh filter joint right away. And I don't know, I'm a weirdo like that. I I will squish it, you know. And then in this case with the weed that I rolled, it wasn't too much of a factor or hindrance or anything. I was still able to smoke the joint all the way through. Um, I did find um the Stellar J more enjoyable experience, especially at the um beginning of the smoking of the joint. Um I was, I don't know if I'm just like convinced on some type of placebo effect or something, but I was almost surprised at first where I did kind of feel like it almost maybe does taste a little better, you know? Because that was one of those things I was like, okay, sure, the flow, whatever. But like, we're really gonna enjoy a better flavor or something.

SPEAKER_04 2:58:34

The the reality of it is it's next to impossible to remove undesirables without removing some desirables. And uh I'm not making any specific or special or outrageous claims that it makes it better, in my opinion. It it's a different experience. And it on my palate, when I smoke it specifically, I notice way less of this kind of tarry, ashy, resinous flavor, especially down towards the end of it. Uh, it's uh a smoother, more regulated experience. And like I said, it it offers consistency. Where I find some cardboard filters or other filters in general, they still um have like unregulated airflow paths. And having that one center small hole in the in the uh biomass side of the filter, I think regulates the direction of the airflow a lot and stops it from going down side paths on the on the joint.

SPEAKER_08 2:59:31

And you learn a lot from looking through the cone on both sides, because the first time I grabbed it, uh, and you know, some other people looked at it, the the first comment was, oh, you're gonna you're gonna get you know particulate come through or whatever. And um you really realize how well it works when you look through the the top of the cone side, and you can see, well, there actually is a floor or like a ceiling to where the filter itself starts, right? And you can see that the hole at the top there is is only like a small portion of the total footprint of the head of the the filter, right? So yeah, as long as like we were talking about earlier in this um cast about it was just like having your particulate size right in your in your grind, having proper moisture still in the cannabis so that it'll have some type of uh you know stick toativeness, right? When you and then, you know, like through a hummingbird or the right machine, getting the right compression or you know, compaction of that busted flour into the cone. That's the magic formula.

SPEAKER_04 3:00:48

Yeah, you can't you can't just stuff it in there, and uh I get it. And like chat's not wrong, the majority of pre-rolls are definitely booth, you know. Like I stand on that for sure, but uh, you know, we're we're making an effort to change it from the inside. Like, I only want to smoke good products and I want to be able to smoke the all the products that I make, you know. It's like I uh I'm at all these trade shows and I'm putting like my face on these products, you know, I'm standing on business with these, so I don't really have the the luxury of making like whack products, and uh yeah, anyways, that's the goal.

SPEAKER_05 3:01:25

I think Adam touched upon this earlier is like if every joint was an expression from the maker to the person who's gonna enjoy it on the other end, like if you put out 100,000 joints, is joint 342 gonna be the same as joint 79,821?

SPEAKER_04 3:01:44

Yes, 100,000 joints is a hundred thousand experiences, and it's very difficult to regulate that, and it's also a lot of pressure to commercialize a product that you think is gonna be a consistent experience, is near impossible. It's like trying to control every variable in a very organic and like you said, subjective experience is like you're just not gonna please everybody, and it's a lot of pressure, and I take it very seriously and very personally, and bad bad reviews like affect me and the way I think about the products that I design. So, like I said, I don't have the luxury of just like being like, Oh yeah, fuck it, whatever, put it in the cone and send it out. You know, it's like that's not my intentions in this industry at all.

SPEAKER_07 3:02:27

Well, and well, I will I will I will say not to not to uh you know pump what we do here, but if I if I may for a second, uh you know, if if anybody is listening you're absolutely right. Like the the reason that guys like like us exist is because it's very challenging to hit that degree of consistency. Um the thing that you know I say, there's lots that I'm proud of that we do. Um but I look at our retention vault, which is what needs, you know, typically this is where your your your rejects are gonna go because they get to sit for two years past the last data sale, whatever it is. Everything that comes off of our line looks the same. And uh for anybody who's struggling with um getting consistent product out, and and and and I know that there's lots because again, that that is our the core of what we do. Um give us a call because we're we're happy to help. Um we we're not we we may make we may make the volume that we do um but we also do you know just for context, we do uh hand-rolled two gram rosin core uh hash holes, right, with a glass tip. So we do everything from super commercial uh high volume runs all the way through to some of the uh some of the best growers in the in the country who really want to focus on what they do best, which is cultivation and maximizing expression. And and it'll and and they work with someone with with partners like us who can help pair that the that level of passion that they have about cultivation, we have about making uh consistent, uh consistent and enjoyable product.

SPEAKER_05 3:04:19

So I think we've got a couple couple folks on the panel here that specialize in that, or we've got a quality assurance one, and we've got a hands-on one, and and I'm really loving how this is coming together. I think you when you were away, Adam, we did touch upon uh a low-cost entry point device and said maybe automate where automation makes sense. I would say that the hummingbird system is semi-automated because it's still a lot of hands-on packing and weighing and making sure that you've got everything just right so that when you drop it in the machine to spin, it's gonna come out right and then come out consistently. But I can't wait to see your facility out of it.

SPEAKER_07 3:05:02

I would say that just again, what I mean by no automation, uh I mean the way that we make uh joints, it doesn't even plug into the wall.

SPEAKER_05 3:05:12

Right? So it's no it's hands.

SPEAKER_07 3:05:16

It's uh it's passion.

SPEAKER_04 3:05:20

How big is how big is the team? How many people?

SPEAKER_02 3:05:23

Good question.

SPEAKER_07 3:05:24

Uh it say our team varies and it scales based on what we're doing in a given month. So it is 30, 40, 50, but you're doing four million joints in the I'll tell you right now, right now, um we're employing 150 people. Yeah, I bet. So, and you know what? Like it's it's uh it's a real privilege to do so because these guys care tremendously about what they do. They they um uh we have a team that eats, sleeps, dreams, bleeds, pre-roll manufacturing. And well, and and and but that but that that really guys, I'm not gonna uh sugarcoat it. That's the secret sauce. That is a hundred percent the secret sauce is having a team of people who care. And and I I was listening to it before. Um, you know, it's hard. I'm not gonna sugar, I'm not gonna lie, it's it's it's hard to create a viable business um when when you're doing it, you know, one pre-roll at a time, if you will. And uh the only way that the only way that we any of us are gonna get there is by is by having that passion and having people who care tremendously about what they do because uh it it's a it's a complicated thing, it's it's we we always would call it deceptively simple, right? It it couldn't be so hard. You just put the weed in the cone, right?

SPEAKER_04 3:07:00

And it's not even just the people that are hands-on with the cannabis, like the team is so massive and so important to the infrastructure that it's like, yeah, like someone like me has no chance without a very dedicated team of like specialized individuals who really, really care about what they're doing. And like I've not seen an LP succeed at all without people who are like very specialized in their you know, corner of cannabis, and whether it's like accounting or bookkeeping or managing any aspect of it, distribution, uh fucking stock, it doesn't matter, anyways. Shout out to everybody in every position that contributes to the the machine.

SPEAKER_07 3:07:45

I will say that uh um we are expanding and we are hiring. So for anybody who's in the comments or anybody who's reading or following along here, where is your um where's our facility? We're we're in Vaughn, Ontario, or like Vaughn. Vaughn, Vaughn.

SPEAKER_05 3:08:06

Oh, okay. I thought it was Vaughn. I I'm from BC, so I'm trolling.

SPEAKER_04 3:08:12

Kyle's a professional troll. This guy's always trolling.

SPEAKER_01 3:08:15

He's turning it into Dutch real fast, you know. Vaughn, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 3:08:20

It does sound Dutch. Tell us about Vaughn. I've never I've never been there yet.

SPEAKER_07 3:08:27

Uh it's it's uh it's like a commercial park. It's um, you know, it's not I don't say it's the most exciting place. As a matter of fact, um the the municipality um prevents dispensaries from being allowed to sell joints and and or set part joints, sell weed. There's no dispensaries in Vaughan, which is uh an interesting thing. So we're it's kind of like um I don't know if you've ever if if you knew that the Jack Daniels uh distillery is in one of the last dry counties in the United States, um, which is which is I've I've been there, it's a really cool tour, but you're not the the only way that you're allowed to buy booze out of that distillery is if you get it engraved. So it's technically a gift, um, or uh like it's not just a bottle of of booze, which again, it's you know, even a hundred years after prohibition, they're still trying to find loopholes in how to, you know.

SPEAKER_06 3:09:32

Uh does does that mean if I come if I come visit you, you have to engrave a pack of joints?

SPEAKER_07 3:09:38

If you come visit me, Aaron, I'll engrave a pack of joints for you.

SPEAKER_06 3:09:41

All right, thank you.

SPEAKER_05 3:09:43

So, Adam, if somebody wanted to make a West Coast cannabis cigar that comes in in like a nice cedar box, and and you I heard you say two gram joint. I thought that'd be over a hash hole, would be over a thousand mig, but what if we could have a a three uh 3.5 gram nice blunt in a cedar box, eight blunts make an ounce. Could you do that?

SPEAKER_07 3:10:06

Uh listen, we we can do uh we can do whatever you want to do. If your compliance team gives us the is happy to sign off, then we're happy to help you make whatever you want.

SPEAKER_04 3:10:18

The truth is the market is so small for products like that. Like the market is a very small fraction for those kind of in the world. They're selling wild burgers for 80 bucks, dude.

SPEAKER_05 3:10:28

Did you hear about it?

SPEAKER_07 3:10:29

Yeah, but they only sold four of them. Yeah, you know, like like meanwhile, how many three dollar to your point earlier, how many three dollar cheeseburgers sell, right? There's there's there's a reason that you know it for it's it's unfortunate again. I go back to it's unfortunate for the heady crowd who who really cares about this kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_06 3:10:51

Um no, they just have to search a little harder, you know, and that's the whole thing. That's fair.

SPEAKER_07 3:10:56

Yeah, that's that's that's fair.

SPEAKER_06 3:10:57

That's the same thing with going to like a uh a high-end restaurant, you know, you're gonna be driving further and and drive and looking harder for it, but when you find it, you're gonna enjoy it. But you're right, you're right. Uh on average, oh man, those three dollars cheeseburgers are just flying.

SPEAKER_07 3:11:13

You know, they're tasty too.

SPEAKER_06 3:11:17

Right.

SPEAKER_05 3:11:19

No, I I like the cheeseburger analogy, Aaron. Thank you for that. Because I think too often people default to come up with alcohol analogies, and you know, it's like, let's distance ourselves from alcohol and cigarettes and tobacco, and let's find new ways to talk about cannabis and how we enjoy it and how we consume it, and with others, you know.

SPEAKER_06 3:11:42

It's all about trying to put your best foot forward in any situation that you're in. So even if you're doing a three-dollar cheeseburger per se, it's about making the best three-dollar cheeseburger so you can set yourself apart from everybody else.

SPEAKER_05 3:11:53

You might even use real cheese.

SPEAKER_07 3:11:58

Well, and also making sure that that cheeseburger isn't like, you know, the bun's over here, the burgers over here, the cheese is stuck to the paper, right? It needs to be constructed the way the right way because if the cheeseburger delivers at the very least what it's supposed to, check. It's done its job.

SPEAKER_06 3:12:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_09 3:12:19

I agree 100%. McDonald's has over something trillion served. Well, you know, and and but but not that's not by accident, right?

SPEAKER_07 3:12:28

It's not by snacks and sorry. Um that's that's that's that's that's not an accident. Um they understood that consistency in delivery is um is and and and obviously the the convenience factor, the convenience factor is a given, but there's lots of people who are in the fast food game. There's very few where you can go anywhere around the world and a Big Mac's a Big Mac.

SPEAKER_08 3:12:58

Well, and the consumer deserves consistency, and I don't think that we should say that we can't deliver that in the cannabis industry just because we're dealing with an organic plant. Like I know in my early days of I was doing hydrocarbon extraction before I got into solventless, and we used to always make this super lemon haze from the same grower, and you know, for the longest time it was super consistent in terms of like yield or yield percentage yield was like within a single percentage point for like multiple years, but then eventually it did, you know, start deteriorating a little bit. I don't know if it was genetic drift. I don't know, maybe the guy wasn't replacing the bulbs in his grow. You never know. Um, I don't, you know, genetic drift is a whole other story that we could talk about or whatever. I'm not uh in any way a weed scientist on that level, but like um I think there's something to be said about the consistency of when I go and look for specific strains, like a violator cushion. I have a very specific idea in my head of what it should taste like, what it should smell like, what my experience consuming it should be like. And and when we talk about um also rec consumers versus medical consumers or medical patients who are trying to treat themselves, like they want a consistent product time after time. And I think that again, we were poo-pooing COAs at the very beginning of this episode. You're wearing a high north hoodie, you know. Like I that is some weed science that I do enjoy and nerd out on, you know, like I do appreciate the fact that, you know, for Canadian labs, uh High North does its best to try and test for more um terpenes than anyone else, right? And and Marcus, you're right, it's not just terpenes, it's esters and everything else that uh add to that. Um, but but yeah, I do believe, especially with advances in modern technology, that we should be able to mass produce certain products, joints, for example, and try and have them consistent over years. I'm not saying it's easy, but I'm saying people want it, consumers want it, the the community wants it, and I think we have the ability to deliver, and I think any advancements that we can do in the form that we deliver it or the techniques that we use to produce it are are just gonna benefit us all.

SPEAKER_04 3:15:46

COAs are incredibly important uh when it comes to like uh data aggregation and analysis. You know, like without COAs, I don't think we'd be at the state that we are now. It's the only method. As long as you're like you trust your lab and you're getting accurate samples and you demand um super low limits of quantification and stuff like that, you can you can you know use it to steer your products in the exact direction that you want. You know, you can essentially engineer them in any way or form possible. And I think that's the key to like incredibly consistent experiences. And it does deviate from you know the purist ideology that we tend to have, especially you know, hash purists or people that are very focused on cultivars specific expressions. That stuff's all you know amazing and I love it too. But like you said, when it comes to a replicatable experience and something that's you know commercially viable, you have to go deep, deep into the COAs and get a massive like volume, a library, so you can see trends and you have the ability to, like you said, notice and understand why cultivar potencies are dropping or yields are dropping, or the uh you know cannabinoid spectrum in that specific cultivar that you're very familiar with is all of a sudden changing, or you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:17:08

Sorry, Colin, go ahead. Yeah, I just want to make sure make it clear that we're not we weren't poo-pooing them. I think we were highlighting some of the inherent issues with relying on um TAC as a mechanism to buy um a product in in a retail environment.

SPEAKER_03 3:17:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 3:17:26

And I think there's a distinction here that we should make that um COAs are incredibly important for standardization and understanding under the hood, like, does it have a lot of heavy metals? Like as someone who grows organic cannabis, like it's a guiding light to have soil tests and COAs and be able to look at um what is there, you know, because you don't know until you know. And um to your point, you know, it's how you're gonna get a good insight into how your product's gonna be standardized. if you're doing big lots or or whatever, but but that's you know in bacteria, right? Like we want to make sure there's no mold or or or whatever have you. Um but yeah I just want to make sure that we understand there's a it's a double edged sword because we then have turned around and brought it to the consumer and we haven't really explained you know this whole idea of what a COA actually is and uh I think we've incorporated things like TAC and allowed that could to kind of um lead in terms of quality and why a buy I've had buyer you know c customers tell me like I don't buy anything below 32%. It's you know what I mean and it's just bizarre it's a bizarre comment. It's a bizarre comment like you know rightfully so though but they but in their world they're it they are right. You know what I mean? Like they're they're what am I gonna argue with there? You know what I mean? Like the spin at a certain hour.

SPEAKER_04 3:19:01

At a certain point it causes somewhat of like a potency space race like where everyone's just you know trying to max out potency and the parameters of like an HPLC or a like a spectral analysis can be tuned to like always go to the high end of the percentage range you know and uh there's tons of little like tricks and things that labs will do or that you can request a lab to do in order to move your biomass you know like that's a huge portion is like when these uh exactly when they're when they're moving these big uh lots of biomass they're obviously gonna use crown mugs like take selected samples do all this shit to represent a lot that is you know probably way below that I encourage buyers to buy to try to try to buy lower tech flour see how that does for you you know I mean I think you're gonna surprise yourself well I I I you know I I think you guys are uh really you're uh you everybody is correct here um you know the the COAs are exactly a double-edged sword uh we've seen it they they when stuff doesn't hit potency um because it needs to hit some i target potency for for the brand to sell it uh at at the velocity that they need to it creates challenges it creates challenges in the supply chain it it creates pressure uh downward pressure on on uh pricing it creates pressure on the growers to do things that they don't necessarily want to do as passionate growers because they're trying to get expression out of a plant and they're being told you need to get a specific one number on a COA which happens to today be the most important number and I think the big tragedy here is that genetics are going to change.

SPEAKER_07 3:20:50

Like what what we're gonna see is the Chiquita banana you know the the sort of banana story right overall exactly and and the the sad part is as we said and it's not to slam the use of COAs. The COAs are highly important for a understanding you know soil biology and and and all of the different um uh the the the chemistry that goes into uh actually growing the plant but also uh creed to your point about the aggregate data to understand you know what did this do what did this do changing this variable what happened there and what ultimately what I'm seeing is COAs are highly important but we're using them the wrong way right the COAs should have never been used as a marketing tool those numbers that are on uh every package that's sold in cannabis uh as far as THC and CBD content like people don't even understand what it means because it's it's number relative to the uh quantity of other um um uh uh other cannabinoids the the volatiles as Marcus you know uh appropriately calls them um that determines the the experience far more than just the single number anybody who has smoked pure THCA diamonds which I bet everybody on this call has or everybody on this uh has would know that that is a burn right here it's single it's sing single directional right and and and and it's it's it's it's uh you talk about the entourage effect is boring it's boring yeah it's boring and that's that's why the uh everybody talks about this entourage effect because it's not just the THC the CBD it's how it interacts with the different array of cannabinoids you know uh uh esters aldehydes thyles and terpenes and all of these other compounds that uh that ultimately creates the experience that's either desirable or not desirable and so the way that I would you know if if in a perfect world in my mind weed would just be you know low potency medium potency and high potency and maybe very high potency these what a pre-roll here guys this is 18 right here this is kind of my point and this we're in Canada it's not like that Colin it's different up here and I will say one of the main differences is is that we can't even look at the you know for the longest time you couldn't even look through the package you couldn't smell you couldn't see anything so it inevitably became about price and THC percentage how many of the the the brands have already switched to window bags I'm not in retail I wouldn't know so is it still like that now Marcus because it's they they allow a window like they they just allowed a window on the bag so you can have a portion of your bag that's translucent you can look through the bag and see the weed now that's like in the last nine months or something but I just want to ask like what if it is we're chasing the wrong number like somebody's saying the the customer wants only 32% THC Line but how many people on this panel have had the good fortune to smoke THC V flower a flower high in THC V and I I find that to be magically uplifting almost clairvoyant Daisy like you've seen that movie Limitless that's how THC V makes me feel and so why why the hell would you want 32% THC Delta 9 when you could have a 1010 or a 1212 and and have a magical experience.

SPEAKER_01 3:24:36

You're not wrong what you're saying Kyle like in terms of how it makes you feel the the issue I mean I I'm I very much share your same sentiment it's an amazing experience but it's extremely hard to convince the masses that um they need that um in their quiver. You know it's it's it's been proven to be that way actually um you know but it's an amazing you know like other cannabinoids there's others you know other other stacks that you can make that'll do that same thing right in terms of how it makes you function but you know just getting that to the masses is has been proven to be tough.

SPEAKER_05 3:25:16

But um I'm I'm curious just in Canada like I I don't have an option to go to all the stores and see all the brands but maybe Shelson or Adam have either of you guys what percentage of your clients that you roll for are rolling by formulated cannabinoid concentrations are they rolling C BG, C B D, THC V How much of this are you seeing in the market?

SPEAKER_02 3:25:40

Honestly we I see everything like there's all types of ratios and variations that depend on the customer what the customer wants CBD is honestly rare in my friends like C V D like lots of T C honestly Yeah I think that it's mostly the HC focused product sorry sorry no go ahead I was gonna say are you guys seeing a lot of people uh boasting terpenes percentages and things like that.

SPEAKER_07 3:26:41

Yeah it's more now than before for sure like there was definitely very little talk about terpenes when we started up but definitely late as of lately there's been a lot more the general public are are starting to get more aware of like terpene profiles and things like that but and yeah I think I I think sort of you know I I like I I agree with you that they understand that it's it's another one of those numbers that they don't understand man like you're right looking for percentages. They're looking for a percentage they don't know what and and to be fair in Canada in Canada you're not allowed to advertise or make claims about effect there was a lot of attempts to try to you know explain what this weed did versus that weed and and and the the market is still trying to wrap its head around Indica and sativa even though you know those are kind of like made up terms right like what what it it's it's not indicas is just a a a a a uh a leaf shape right and it's it's a it's a land it's like a region.

SPEAKER_04 3:27:52

It's like a land race region.

SPEAKER_07 3:27:55

It's a exactly right so but so there's there's uplifting and and you know there's uplifting indicas there's set sedative sativas right like the the this is just a reality and it comes down to understanding the impact of how these compounds work together and the reality is the way that the regulations are written we're not allowed to do that and there's no incentive financial other or otherwise to do that because you can't make claims about it. What people understand about terpenes is not the relationship between beta caryophylline and leanolol right they they care that you know it's it's over 2% and and and and the reality is you what but to answer your question um what we're seeing is on packages of more premium brands they will list the terp almost everybody's listing terpene compet uh content but uh you are seeing like uh actual top five terpenes and their percentages on certain premium uh premium branded products but again this this appeals to what percentage of the market because at the end of the day they're gonna come in and say you know when I buy weed when I go to a dispensary and buy weed I say what is the highest expression like what what in your opinion has got the best expression of of whatever the hell it's trying to be and the bud tender sometimes looks at me funny.

SPEAKER_01 3:29:21

So the Adam like the five to ten expression yeah I mean that's the five to ten terpenes thing I believe is really part of our regulation and our in our state systems down here in the US um like I have to do I actually have to list like the top five well I would I would I mean frankly that would be a good thing I mean that's that's more information and it's not necessarily it's not necessarily about the quantity it's about what you know maybe I can recognize that these when I see these names I get tired right and the cut and the customer can make that a association in their head um but but again we're not allowed to say that these these do that right um so what claims are you are just so we can educate the consumer like the listeners and even myself here because I'm not familiar with the the the rules and regs in Canada um I you know as I said before I have a a license in the United States so it's it's a different it's just a different world for us you know I mean I do have a CGP lab right like we are headed like there is there's that we're we do share that but um you know it seems like it's just a very different beast you know you can't make really any claims the marketing regulations and restrictions in Canada are very crazy like if you have a s a SKU that has like a um a name that could be like I don't know time game for a kid or like no that's like not allowed or like you guys have a lot of brands that have like cartoons or like um animations on like the brand and the tubes and whatever we can't have that like there's a brand that is in the US and in Canada and their like packaging looks different than our packaging because ours has like less things because of the restrictions.

SPEAKER_07 3:31:20

I I actually have a computer yes I am I I actually have a funny story about that when we uh when we had pinners on the shelf we had um I and I gotta remember because it's been a while but we had we tried to launch a product called pinners uh supernova thunder punch okay and it was and it was a it was going to be a bubble hash infused pinner and um health canada flagged the word suit uh thunder punch because it was something related to Pikachu it was uh it was it is so so we had to pull the term thunder punch and we launched pinners supernova but they were originally supposed to be called supernova thunder punch we had a product um a status product that we're coming up with I think it was a babe and it was originally supposed to like what they wanted to be called it was great blast fizzy pops by how canada flag the fizzy pops because that's like I I don't know exactly why but we we also haven't to just put it great glass because that's what is the what is the length of time to get these things approved even sometimes it takes a really long time because you have to go put in an NCT and that always takes 60 days minimum and that's a federal thing right shelton right and then you have to like if you have to go back and forth that like takes a while sometimes sometimes oh man so you you might you might have product that you want to put out that you don't even have a name for not an approved one yeah but you don't know if it's gonna get approved yeah when you submit to the province if they have concerns about like uh like a regulatory concern about your name they'll submit it to Health Canada and Health Canada will determine whether or not it's like related to a confectionery or a candy product or a like a cartoon or anything like uh there's certain color restrictions logo size restrictions uh it's it's very very restricted there it it it goes even further like we we also manufacture gummies and there's limitations on what shapes of gummy you can't put out a gummy bear like that's that's that's not compliant because that's for kids you can't put out a gummy worm so instead you've got these guys who are creating new molds that never existed before because you're creating them for products where you have these compliance issues where you've got gummy you know a little stack of gummy lines yeah and they're called sticks or whatever and and and why because the gummy might appeal to a kid like I but so I would think yeah I would think that that uh that's the yeah okay the dispensary's problem at that point you know like you you make sure that you don't sell it to a child you make sure that doesn't yeah all right keep going but at the same time Aaron can you come up here and take over I'm just saying it's it it oh man that's that's pretty rough there because that's a bad joke right now Robbie okay freeze living in Alberta too come on now uh friezes were pulled off the shelf I know that you guys have freezes in uh California I went to um uh uh what one of the conferences there I can't remember um but I I remember there were samples and I I got a box of these freeze and I was so excited to take them back home with me and I left them in the freezer in the in the hotel because who checks the freezer before they leave but we were supposed to not we join cracking.

SPEAKER_04 3:35:06

I do but only because I leave my dabs there to maintain the cold supply chain so so I mean I I have a question like okay there's a company um out of Michigan that I work with uh called Lion Labs and they do uh these pot pots things right I just met them oh really right on yeah I was at the exchange in Lansing on uh just like a couple weeks ago I uh they gave me the pot pots I really like oh my gosh I was I was there too I don't know how we missed each other I have a huge booth I was with yield distro when you walked right in the front and there was like those 10 booths like right in the front no they gave us they gave us some spot in the back I don't know yeah go on and tell them about pot pots it's it's basically a dead on MM um or Marty or Smarty yeah it's like uh yeah for you guys smarties yeah um but it's it's it's a chocolate covered candy that like you know a thin shell that looks dead on like any other candy in the market tastes exactly like them and uh I mean they're crushing it they also just put out something called pixels which is um so you guys have nerds up there right yeah it's dead on the same shape taste profile everything and you you guys wouldn't be able to do that because of the shape and taste oh yeah you can't market to children period but the the cool thing about pot pots is that they're one milligram in a marketplace where it's near impossible to find a 10 milligram gummy in fact all the bud taners will be just like oh just cut it in half and I'm like most people are like what like 20 times like it's a 50 milligram or a you know all the packs are 200 milligrams you look you go to any store and there's literally like a hundred different packs of gummies all 200 milligrams very few people at stores could find me a 10 milligram gummy and so when I bumped into the pot pots uh girls there I was like fucking hey that's awesome no and you know what I went to their I went to their spot um these guys it it was like uh it was like going to Jurassic Park it was like I spared no expense like it was dead on the like the actual machinery um uh the confectionary machinery to produce uh uh you know smarties and whatnot like I mean like gigantic uh uh long conveyor belts for cooling it was it was well well put together I was super impressed yeah um they're they're one of those companies that like uh I'm like wow these guys these guys have have figured it out and um if they keep pushing they're gonna be a big name you know no doubt yeah I'm uh I'm also involved in large scale gummy production that's like uh Loki the actual bread and butter at my lab and uh my uh brand biggies is like uh live resin input only and uh really diverse cannabinoids lots of CBGs and CBCs and all sorts of stuff like that but uh yeah it's it's a massive undertaking and uh the amount of like automation and equipment to do it properly uh is yeah quite uh yeah quite wild.

SPEAKER_06 3:38:27

Do you have any crazy uh flavor profiles right now?

SPEAKER_04 3:38:30

Uh yeah we're doing lots of interesting things uh we have uh one that we're uh calling peach lime fizz that's uh kind of like uh yeah a tangy pop we have uh some dragon fruit ones we did a matcha latte uh uh last year wasn't a success very polarizing flavor for sure uh yeah we got we got a lot lots of different things orange orange creams that's the main one tell us about the three different formulations you put into pure flow and the three names of those uh the three names oh uh the ones I have commercialized currently I have uh Tangerine Dream uh I have an ice cream cake and uh then I have one that has a small percentage of botanical terps in it called blueberry ice um and that's uh you know to appeal to a different market and then I have uh in Toronto I have a one gram uh island pink kush infused pre-roll that's uh coming to central distribution uh and the ice cream cake as well is going out east um but yeah that's all true true to strain like kind of single source or at least like vertically integrated source where it's like the same flour extracted into you know two fractions and then readded together to meet like an engineered potency call out um but I I love them I smoke them all the time myself and I'm like a religious dabber like a full time oil consumer and uh it's essentially reignited my love for smoking joints now puffing down.

SPEAKER_06 3:39:57

Can I ask you a question how do you how do you uh How are you doing your um if you don't mind me? I don't I'm not looking for your secret sauce exactly.

SPEAKER_04 3:40:04

No, no, I'm I'm an open book, man.

SPEAKER_06 3:40:06

When you um when you're making your infusion, uh, how are you homogenizing your cannabis?

SPEAKER_04 3:40:12

By hand. Really? Even on a large scale. It's the only way to like not over-pulverize or continuously mill uh the flour down. You know, it there's so many different methods that I've tried and used. Centrifuge centrifuge is good, to be honest with you. I think your humbling bird could easily double as like a uh in centrifuge for infusing infusing biomass, but it's uh I like to do it by hand. I'm very hands-on, it's got to be craft, and I need to feel the texture of the mill. And uh I'm milling into different sizes and then re-adding them back together to create like an even spectrum of some finer mill and some more coarse mill. And I think that uh particle uh variety is one of the unique parts of why the airflow is so consistent and the burn is so even. And like you said, temperature of the burn is so important if you're packing them really tight or if the particle size is all very small, it burns at an incredibly hot temperature.

SPEAKER_06 3:41:09

Well, that's awesome, man. Yeah, no, I'm I'm I I I like I like that you're using every different part of the plant and then putting it back, you know?

SPEAKER_04 3:41:16

Yeah, like I said, you kind of have to work with the building blocks in order to meet your call outs too. I mean, if you want to hit your max potency call out, which in Canada for concentrates is a thousand milligrams per package, you have to get very creative in order to like maximize the amount of THC you're allowed to put in there while still creating like uh enjoyable product.

SPEAKER_07 3:41:38

I just I'm just thinking about how valuable those hands are.

SPEAKER_04 3:41:41

Oh man, I it's like the only way like I just I also just love weed, like I'm a weed nerd, you know, so playing with weed all day isn't bad. I'm not milling by hand by any means. I'm definitely not milling by hand. All right, confusing by hand for sure.

SPEAKER_06 3:42:00

Does it get to the consistency of uh I I I like to say kinetic sand?

SPEAKER_04 3:42:05

Yes, of course. Yeah, that's kind of a sweet spot. Yeah, it's like don't you love that? Yeah, it's incredibly uh fun to play with, but uh yeah, you can make it into a dinosaur and then it just kind of melts away.

SPEAKER_06 3:42:17

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 3:42:18

You can a lot of these joints are over-infused in order to meet that max potency call out. They'll just put distillate in it and blend it with some garbage and send it out the door. But uh, there's a lot that goes into making you know a pre-roll that's enjoyable to consume, and distillate is definitely not on the menu of those things for sure. My facility is like a no distillate facility.

SPEAKER_11 3:42:39

What about uh rosolit? Are you using rosalet?

SPEAKER_04 3:42:44

Definitely not, definitely not. Although you heard it here for the new new because I heard it twice in Colorado in the last couple of tricks I've been on there.

SPEAKER_11 3:42:54

No, no, that's they're actually saying that. Oh no, they're actually doing it. Well yeah, like 10% rosin into 90% distillate.

SPEAKER_07 3:43:04

So you got a label, it's it's it's a label claim exercise, so you get to say that your product is uh rosin product, yeah. Rosin infused button.

SPEAKER_05 3:43:12

I want to thank you, Robbie, earlier for giving a report on the sidewalk test. Uh that was really nice. And then unfortunately, Colin and Aaron both didn't get pure flow samples, but one of the panelists that did get the pure flows, our our chairman of the board here, Bubble Man, you got those a couple days ago. I'd I'd like to ask you if you'd noticed anything different when you smoked a pure flow joint rather than any other cone you might have come across.

SPEAKER_11 3:43:43

Well, I don't smoke cones generally at all, meaning I don't think I've really smoked any other cones. I've certainly never liked I I was even like, how the fuck am I supposed to pack this? My buddy's like, Oh, you grind it up and put it in the top. I'm like, seriously, like I couldn't wrap my head around it. It was kind of funny. I like being a noob uh in a sense. So all I really had to compare it to were my joints that I roll. I just roll joints, I don't put filters on. What I don't like in a filter, uh, which is generally most filters, is they're like, it's just too big of a space, it's just too much air coming through. I prefer a little bit more of a reduction in my split because I grew up old school, didn't smoke joints for 30 years. But 30 years ago when I did smoke joints, towards the end of my joint smoking career, certainly before my very large uh sabbatical from smoking joints, I uh I never really used filters. Um maybe towards the end after some trips to Amsterdam, I I kind of got inspired to do that. But I I prefer a more uh you know more of a reduction than a than a than an opening. So I like the the the pure full. Like I said, I did pack a couple of them in a way where they got very just really towards like like the end of the joint. You know, certainly not a lot, but right towards the end of the joint. You can even see how it's all sucked in across itself. Like I haven't bent that. That's just because it got so tight, it was sucking. You know, and I'm also using very, very like high grade herb that is probably you know 28% THC A or whatever. Like it's high THC, there's no doubt about it. It's very strong, gassy flour, it's very sticky. Um, yeah, I definitely noticed the taste.

SPEAKER_05 3:45:30

You you you mentioned earlier you're using the crush grinder, and I love the crush, I love this grinder tip of the hat to Justin over at Crush. I love it. Um, but the thing is, is if you're getting too fine of a grind, the crush grinder, you only need to almost go twist twist. Like that's it.

SPEAKER_11 3:45:46

So I'll I'll play around it, I'll experiment to get that coarse, coarser grind. That's it.

SPEAKER_05 3:45:51

Just full full disclosure, Aaron. When we did the hummingbird test with Creed, I watched him burn through a pound with one of these. It took a while, Creed, but it was impressive. Your dedication. Well, these grinders are second.

SPEAKER_04 3:46:05

I have carpal tunnel now. I have carpal tunnel now.

SPEAKER_06 3:46:09

It will never be the same. Don't try this at home, kids.

SPEAKER_04 3:46:12

Don't try it with a don't try it with a round grinder. The the crush is very uh functional in its like ergonomics.

SPEAKER_06 3:46:19

I like the kind of rabbit. Yeah, actually. Oh yeah. I was just looking at one of those. I was wondering, yeah.

SPEAKER_11 3:46:25

He's got a spot, he's he's basically got a spot for your fingers when you spin it so that they don't hit each other each other. I love it. These little these little round spots actually make a lot of sense. I've not listened I'm I'm new to this joint smoking world again, but I will say that this cube 2.0 is by far my favorite grinder.

SPEAKER_07 3:46:48

Yeah, big big credit to uh Justin for listen, we talk about what we do is difficult. Um Justin uh built a grinder brand in at a time that you know there were there were already a few brands and and many of them have disappeared and and uh and crush is still crushing it. They're they're distributed all over the world. And um it's he's he's done a really good job. It's really elegant design. It it it sort of what's nice about it is it's it's it kind of uh moved along with uh the development and the growth of the space, right? It when it we're a little rougher around the edges before, and we're moving into a little bit more of an elegance so we can appeal to uh, I guess, folks outside of our our little circle in the heady space, uh having these kinds of cool products um is super important. And he's done a really good job.

SPEAKER_05 3:47:49

Nice one. Well, we we penned this uh theme of the show as the art of the perfect pre-roll. And I think you touched upon this earlier, Colin, when you're talking about living soil organics and say whatever what happens after the seed to get that joint to the customer. And um, I I'd add in sunshine if I could, you know, if it was sun-kissed LO LSO, uh whether there was a light assist in there or not. But as long as the sun got to touch the plant, I think that's pretty important. And then uh the curing, you know, the harvesting and the curing, and then the grinding and the care of the grind and that particle size. Take it away, Adam. What happens once you've got that particle size, the art of a perfect pre-roll?

SPEAKER_07 3:48:39

Well, I think I think controlling the environment becomes a really important factor, right? Um, it's so easy once you grind up weed for that moisture. Like it you you start at a clock, right? And and and moisture starts uh escaping and what escapes with moistures. We all know our volatiles, our terpenes, our flavor, right? And uh understanding what the environmentals need to be and keeping your production space and and maintaining your your product all the way through the uh production cycle becomes critical to ensuring that when it ultimately uh gets uh to the customer, we we as as uh manufacturers, as participants in the space have done everything to maintain that product integrity all the way through. So first things first, you have to control your environmentals. Then of course you go through manufacturing. There's several different ways that you can manufacture joints. You know, between everybody here, we probably all do it differently, uh, frankly. And and listen, that's that's okay. Um but what I can see very clearly here is that everybody, at least on this call, does so with passion and does so with great care. So um at the very least, you know, we've all got that. Um but but in in our case, we we uh grind up our weed, we control our environment, we pack our joints, we pack it consistently um and very efficiently, and uh what ends up is a product that then needs to be packaged thoughtfully, and this comes down to what is the brand doing, right? Um do they, you know, are they investing in in airtight packaging? Are they investing in packaging that doesn't let the product rattle around, whatever it is, or you know, vice versa. Are they using uh uh uh uh humidity packs? And and and everybody sort of has a different opinion about that. I'll let sort of chat decide how they feel about humidity packs. I'm I'm a bigger fan personally of just packaging properly and storing proper storage.

SPEAKER_11 3:50:50

Uh, but again, I think it's an even deeper conversation, Adam. I think it has to do with bound and unbound water. And it gets deeper. You're correct. Like it's a scientific discussion. It is not a simple. In fact, I have planned a very special bound and unbound water uh with the good folks at uh Canotral. Uh David has come in. He spent a lot of time with uh he was in the charcuterie board industry. So believe it or not, meats and cheeses are also uh products that off-gas flavorance and smells and odors and stuff. So he had to really learn about like how do you you know, how do you somehow in the best way make that so that shit's not all disappearing like really fast?

SPEAKER_04 3:51:39

At the end of the day, we these are craft products, you know, like uh fine wines and even uh well-brewed coffees, you know, there's so many uh aspects to it. Um, it's incredibly nuanced. And uh yeah, I mean, I'm sure we can literally wax poetic about this forever about the perfect pre-roll. I mean, what is the perfect pre-roll, really?

SPEAKER_11 3:52:00

Let's do it, let's never stop, let's go for the world record. Like seven years from now, we're all still gonna be on this podcast. You know, one of the things we didn't talk about was the rue, and surprisingly enough, we haven't talked about the roux today here on the pre-roll joint. Um, you guys must know the term rue, the ring of oil, R-O-O. Of course. The old rue, we should talk to about rue. But before we talk about rue, I need to share this because it's cool. Yeah, exactly. That's sex. I just made that while I was talking in chat, moderating the room, trimming my toenails. Uh no, I'm just joking.

SPEAKER_03 3:52:39

That's elite, dude.

SPEAKER_11 3:52:42

You put on a hat.

SPEAKER_01 3:52:44

I have a question for uh on on the the the filter uh aspect.

SPEAKER_11 3:52:49

Sorry, Colin, no questions today.

SPEAKER_01 3:52:51

Listen, I'm gonna I'm gonna have to grill you right now. Um I know it's I I just want to know um because you made you made this you you'd meant this made a comment that it it's filtering. What is it filtering? Just so we can understand that.

SPEAKER_05 3:53:12

Well the I haven't had the great opportunity to conduct my own uh analysis, and not that I am I'm qualified or have the ability to do that. I'm talking about commissioning it at a reliable lab.

SPEAKER_04 3:53:27

Like maybe I believe I've dissected them and looked at them under microscope, like and then analyzed them under microscope. Um, and it's definitely pulling out like mostly heavy tars, um, but there's a lot of fine particulate um uh you know, micron size biomass and some ash uh that is also kind of contained within the fibrous material surface. I wouldn't say so much it's filtering it because the smoke isn't actually passing through it as much as it is passing over the surface.

SPEAKER_05 3:54:01

Um what what what we're gonna ask now is that considering you've looked at that and you've witnessed that, Marcus. Could you take a couple of those filters in your ashtray, cut them open with the clean pair of scissors, and take some macroscopic photography of what you see in that filter?

SPEAKER_11 3:54:20

Is that snap a few pictures?

SPEAKER_06 3:54:23

What is uh what is the material of the filter made out of?

SPEAKER_04 3:54:26

It's a paper fiber, it's a shredded paper fiber and uh yeah, repressed.

SPEAKER_01 3:54:31

It'd be great to understand what it what is there just from a you know, like a it's a chemical.

SPEAKER_04 3:54:38

It seems like it would be easy to do. We have we have CO we have COAs on the filter.

SPEAKER_05 3:54:42

But here's the thing like I you know the research I was talking about, Colin. Like, I I do want to see eventually university level emissions analysis white paper material going out about this filter, but what can we do in the meantime? Like between Creed Mark and Marcus, we could put out a green paper pretty quick by the sounds of it.

SPEAKER_04 3:55:03

Let's let's just smoke them. Smoking them is more fun.

SPEAKER_05 3:55:09

So yeah, I mean, so the science of it, um Colin, I I I'm not uh fully uh confident to talk on the material structure analysis and things like that, but uh what I've witnessed for myself is I did cut a couple open, and at that moment I was like, I don't think I'm gonna smoke regular joints anymore. Because I've been like you, Marcus, I've been rolling my own my whole life, and it takes too long to put a filter in it, so I just roll them. But now that I've seen the filter when I cut it open, I'm I'm I'm uh uh a father and I'm I'm gonna smoke peer flow now.

SPEAKER_04 3:55:47

They they swell quite a bit. You'll notice they they become quite swollen after you peel the label back and take a look at it. It's um you know it's expanding and it's absorbing. But like I said, it's impossible to remove undesirables without removing some desirables. I think it does change the experience a little bit. Um, but uh, in my opinion, it's positive. And like we were talking about before, from a standardization um kind of outlook, it's um one of the better options I've seen.

SPEAKER_07 3:56:17

I I I sorry, I just think that uh you should release this filter as just uh you know a hundred of them in a bag because the shape, the the shape and the uh the airflow of it, it it's it's it's very cool. And and you know, I I mean if I think about the filters you can buy for joints, you can buy you know a hundred uh like little paper filters in a bag and the kind of like the raw ones, or or you can get those whatever you can also get cigarette filters, a hundred of them in a bag, and you know, people tried to do that and it sucked and whatever. Uh even as a pre-roll, as a as a volume consumer, you know, commercial uh manufacturer, I do believe that there will always be a uh market of people who do like to roll their own joints and prefer to roll their own joints. I I know that I'm one of them. So to be able to buy these and roll my own joint, I think is there's there's uh probably a segment of the market there that uh is worth exploring because I would use this to roll joint. Like it does exactly what it's supposed to do. And if there is a scientific benefit, if there is a real health benefit to using these over any other filter, then then why wouldn't I buy 50 of these at a time or a hundred of them at a time and keep it in my bag just like I would the little pack, the little like paper uh filter thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:57:47

Or and or you could do your custom hand roll-esque machine roll pre-roll that you otherwise wouldn't be able to do because it's an all-in-one thing that you're offering now. But um, yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_05 3:58:00

This is this is a brand new product. Um brand new.

SPEAKER_07 3:58:03

I'm not saying today. I'm not saying that.

SPEAKER_05 3:58:05

No, no, I'm I'm I appreciate that. And and trust me, there's a lot of discussion about what different directions this this uh product can go, but right now focused on the B2B supply cone that's that's pre-manufactured, ready for hand filling or automation or semi-automation and everything in between. So um we did get a full set of sample packs um in finally um a couple weeks back. So right now the products offered in three paper types, which is white, brown, and organic hemp. And so the organic hemp is kind of like an off-white, it's a cream. I'd say it's in between white and brown, and then we're doing three standard sizes, which is the King 109, the Medium 98, and the 1Q84 uh with the 26 uh size filter. So that's one standard filter is available in three sizes and three paper types. We've got all the samples in stock in Vancouver, British Columbia. So all you got to do is reach out to us via the website or email or whatever we can do to get get in touch with each other. And we're welcome to share these samples far and wide. We want to get more and more feedback happening. That seems to be the magic of bubble man right now. Is that is that what you're thinking?

SPEAKER_11 3:59:30

You want to give some uh some packs away? Because I can, you know, we can we can do that real quick through night bought here. I can share the screen. The only the only real trouble is is uh making sure when someone wins in the chat room that they send an email to an easy email, not some complex, super long email, because we want them to be able to email right away saying, I am so-and-so in the chat room. But then I usually give them like a small sentence of words to say so I can confirm. Otherwise, anyone can email you and say, I won on Bubble Man's World and I was uh, you know, dispenser or whatever. So should I put an email in the chat?

SPEAKER_05 4:00:10

Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_11 4:00:11

Uh if you want to give some of these away, yeah, just a simple email. Bingle will share it over and over again. And the the rule is simple. I will uh throw up night bot. Um how we do it is basically the people who are chatting, like right now there's only six people since I started it because those are the only six people that have chatted. So each time someone posts a word in the chat, they get entered into this um into this um thanks for joining, Colin.

SPEAKER_05 4:00:40

Really, really work, nice working with you today.

SPEAKER_01 4:00:43

Um pleasure. Thanks guys, thanks for having me. And uh it's uh I can't wait to try it and you know perhaps use it.

SPEAKER_05 4:00:50

So how about how about we make it real easy, Marcus? The first six people to email that email, sales at stellarsjays, stellarjays.com is gonna get um a pack of organic hemp one cube pre-roll filters in the mail next week. So super easy. I appreciate that because we do want to see what's the email again? We're gonna talk about sales at stellarjays.com. So that's S-A-L-E-S sales at stellar s t-e-l-l-arj s dot com.

SPEAKER_11 4:01:24

Perfect. That's awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for coming out. That was a four-hour solid conversation for Hash Church today on pre-roll joints. I appreciate each and every one of you making the time. And uh, you know, this is uh every Sunday here. We do this, we get together and we go down the rabbit hole as deep as we possibly can go. And you know, to be honest, Colin, you got to admit over the years, as many conversations as we had, I don't think we've ever had a conversation about joints the way we did today. So that was and I smoked a joint for the first time ever on Hash Church, which was also pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04 4:01:58

Yeah, I thought this was Hash Church. I thought we were gonna be talking about fucking exotic melts and fucking rare.

SPEAKER_11 4:02:04

Well, you know, I snuck it.

SPEAKER_05 4:02:05

I'm gonna ask a quick one. I know we gotta wrap up here, Marcus. But that that logo you showed us, the the dead deadhead crystal hash church. I'd like to get that on a t-shirt, and on the back it says I smoked a joint on hash church.

SPEAKER_11 4:02:19

Nice.

SPEAKER_05 4:02:20

If we could get 10 of those to distribute to this panel, that'd be pretty dope.

SPEAKER_11 4:02:24

Yeah, yeah, that wouldn't be bad at all.

SPEAKER_07 4:02:26

I would I would uh wear one of those. Yeah. That'd be dope. That's a great that was a great logo. Yeah, yeah for what it's worth. You could do a lot with that. That's pretty cool. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 4:02:38

It's been a blast, guys. I gotta I gotta sign off. But uh it's been great attending Hash Church for my first time, and thanks uh to everybody that contributed. It was a super dope conversation.

SPEAKER_11 4:02:48

Four hours of hash church after nine hours of clubbing.

SPEAKER_07 4:02:51

It's really yeah, it's really refreshing to it's really refreshing to talk to people who you know care and know what they're talking about. So really I agree with you, Creed. Thank you. And uh Marcus, thank you for uh making this podcast possible, and Kyle, you know, for inviting me on. And guys, everybody, it was a real it was a refreshing conversation.

SPEAKER_11 4:03:13

Awesome, everybody. Have a good one. Thanks for coming on. We'll see you next time on Hash Church.